Stirlingengineforum.com

Further down someone comments:

If the whole device is really just a Stirling machine, then it would only work if there is a temperature difference between water and air and the additional buoyancy bodies in the tanks react extremely to this temperature change with a changed volume.
When the temperature of water and air has equalized at some point, the machine should actually stop...although this will take quite a long time as water has such a large heat capacity

IMO equalization would never occur because the compressed and cooled air being passed into the canisters at the bottom of the tank would be EXTREMELY cold drawing heat out of the water while the hot compressed gas traveling down through the pipe would heat the water near the top. There would also be heat continually drawn into the tank from the surrounding ambient. Also, the natural density difference between hot and cold water would tend to naturally keep these thermal zones separated.

What kind of temperature-dependent buoyancy bodies are there that change their volume so quickly?

Hello Harti.

Yes, the temperature-variable volume is achieved by the pumped-in air. The compressed air is pressed into the water column from top to bottom in a counter-current
The compressed air is pressed into the water column from top to bottom, so the heat of compression is extracted from the compressed air and released into the water.
This is already known from compressed air storage power plants, where the heat of the compressed air must be dissipated into a storage tank before the air is introduced into the water column.
the air is fed into the ground so that it is not lost.

The cool and pressurized air is then introduced into the bottom of the buoyancy barrels, where a second effect is used to further subcool the gas,
the evaporative cooling! , ...the water column at the bottom is now actively cooled and allows more air to enter the barrel than the compressor actually has to do.
. This trapped air now rises upwards with the barrel through the water column and expands as a result of the
pressure decrease as known. At the same time, however, the air now also heats up due to the water, which continues to get warmer towards the top and
the barrels. This causes the air to expand further than it would without the addition of heat, because expanding gases cool down, which
would counteract further expansion 

The increase in volume of the gas is therefore greater due to the additional temperature gradient of the water column than it would be due to the pressure gradient in the water column alone. so additional buoyancy work is performed 

The expanded air then leaves the top of the structure with approx. 98% relative humidity, which is what you cannot perceive during the demonstration.

At the same time, the temperature gradient in the room itself, floor 21°C -> ceiling 27°C, creates a temperature gradient in the water column,
which is intensified the more people stand around the set-up in the room.The LED spotlights mounted at the top are also
with their 2x 30 watts have been carefully selected, the 60 watt elec. Power is converted to 95% in photons, which of course again
at the top of the column and are thus converted back into heat with about 70%, so that the water stays nice and warm at the top 

Best regards,

Dodes

Here there was a bit of misunderstanding that the "valve" balls inside the canisters would expand and contract. The representative(?) explained it is the compressed air itself that expands as it heats up and rises.

Personally, I don't think evaporation inside the canisters contributes to the process much, if at all. Probably the opposite. Another reason for situating the demonstration plants in a hot and humid environment.

Unfortunately, the Wayback Machine failed to archive consecutive pages beyond page 3, probably due to the abbreviation of the links, as in this forum

1 2 3 . . . . .123 124 125

Or some such

The very early discussion, however, IMO really confirms my own conclusions regarding how this machine could actually produce power in pretty much every detail, down to the counter-flow heat exchange going on between hot compressed air going down simultaneously heating the water while cooling the gas. The expanding gas in the canisters being cold and reabsorbing that heat on the way up.

That this was considered a type of "Stirling" heat engine at that very early date is truly amazing..

Needless to say, Mr Crowley in our communications has been rather strenuously stearing me away from this thermodynamic "solution" insisting that the real secret is in some mysterious electromagnetic properties of the very special generator, and that any thermal components are insignificant and certainly no absorption of ambient heat is taking place.

IMO completely implausible.

For one thing large electric generators have already been nearly 99% efficient. No remarkable or credible progress is possible in that department IMO.

Secondly, power from ambient heat intake is really the ONLY plausible source of available energy.

The key to an ambient heat engine is in the realization that there is no poverty of energy in ambient heat and that extracting this energy depends upon establishing a temperature difference : Tesla's "cold hole".

In other words, initially, a great deal of heat needs to be disposed of to create COLD. Heat is already abundant.
The first action carried out by a heat pump to attain a COP greater than unity is to compress a gas into tubes which are then rapidly cooled by a fan to dispose of the excess heat.

You then have the cooled gas in a condition where it can be allowed to expand and become very cold so as to absorb copious amounts of heat from the ambient environment.

If the gas does "work" as it expands the absorbed heat can be transformed into work at near 100% efficiency.

With near perfect isothermal expansion this machine should be able to achieve a very high conversion rate.

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What keeps the rising hot metal bins and chain from heating the water on the descent side? Seems the two sides top to bottom would all become the same temperature.

That appears to be a major problem with the Minto Wheel. That and no regenerator. The container gets hot, and then moves to be cooled. Constantly reheating and recooling the container. Very inefficient. In a Stirling Engine that is completely eliminated, one of the beauties.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minto_wheel

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Maximum COP=Th/(Th-Tc)

Maximum efficiency n=(Th-Tc)/Th

Maximum combined efficiency

COP x n = Th/(Th-Tc) x (Th-Tc)/Th = 1

Or 100%. This is the first law of thermodynamics. Maximum. Later it became less from unavoidable losses of heat to the surroundings. CMB = 3 Kelvin.

Think about that. Better yet, put this on Mooker and see what they have to say?

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Fool wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 7:19 am .

What keeps the rising hot metal bins and chain from heating the water on the descent side? Seems the two sides top to bottom would all become the same temperature.

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The smaller GAIA units described, and all the production KPP devices generally move very slowly through the water.

The metal canisters are relatively thin compared with the heat capacity of H2O

IMO there is plenty of time for the containers and chains to equalize in temperature with the water given the very slow movement so heat is not carried between thermal zones.

Hot and cold water tends to maintain or re-establish its own strata naturally anyway.
The demonstration in this video uses a very shallow bowl. The KPP devices are tall towers which would undergo and maintain stratification much more easily.

https://youtu.be/GEYh8pI8JVE

For such a self proclaimed science authority you should already be familiar with such a simple basic well known principle as thermal fluid density and natural stratification.

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That is all well and good. Stratification won't happen if there is a driven mixing action going on.

It has nothing to do with my credentials or abilities, simple inspection of the claimed device would be enough to determine a massive amount of mixing, unless you have data suggesting something else.

Heating and cooling the tubs will be an efficiency reducer.

Since you are refusing to supply any scientific data, you probably will refuse again to supply temperatures top and bottom for the tower water. So the point about stratification is moot.

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Fool wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 9:17 am .

That is all well and good. Stratification won't happen if there is a driven mixing action going on.

It has nothing to do with my credentials or abilities, simple inspection of the claimed device would be enough to determine a massive amount of mixing, unless you have data suggesting something else.

Heating and cooling the tubs will be an efficiency reducer.

Since you are refusing to supply any scientific data, you probably will refuse again to supply temperatures top and bottom for the tower water. So the point about stratification is moot.

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I'm not "refusing to supply" anything.

It's not my job to do ANY legwork to fill in the massive blank spots in your simpleton brain, that would be, and frankly IS and has been, a strenuous, thankless, and futile undertaking.

You're simply a deranged lunatic and incompetent moron, it's not my job to try to spoon feed you information that is readily available.

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That is refusing.

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Fool wrote: ↑Sat Dec 14, 2024 12:39 pm .

That is refusing.

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No, I've provided the information through numerous posted links and videos. All you have to do is read or watch what has already been made available

You are the one "refusing". You refuse what's offered, like you refuse to join a forum or a social platform. You refuse to read or watch a video to educate yourself. You have your head in the sand in an 1820's "classical science" sandbox.

You're not interested and I'm not going to go back over the same information that has already been presented to an apparent deaf dumb and blind illiterate ignoramus.

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Tommy wrote:The demonstration in this video uses a very shallow bowl. The KPP devices are tall towers which would undergo and maintain stratification much more easily.

One thing that really shows a scam is the lame attempt to explain away something erroneous that is blatantly obvious.

It is blatantly obvious that there is a tremendous amount of water column mixing in the KPP tower. It can be observed in the videos. Obvious agitation of the surface water. Turbulence and swirling at depth. A chain of buckets being moved through a column of water not much larger than the buckets. The bucket, starting at the bottom, half empting from air injection, then slowly emptying all the way to the top. Completely filling then moving downward. There is just no way that the water column doesn't have a homogenous temperature from bottom to top.

The lame excuses to get around mixing are proof it is a scam. It would have been better just to admit mixing.

Lake stratification requires fairly quiescent fluid statics. Mixing from winds only penetrates a very shallow depth. The bottom receives no stirring. Ocean thermocline goes from 28 C to 8 C in the first thousand meters, then slowly to about 1 or 2 C at 5000 meters to 7000 meters or more. Give or take.

The more the scam is attempted to be covered up, the more the contradictions are apparent.

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Fool wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 12:38 pm .

Tommy wrote:The demonstration in this video uses a very shallow bowl. The KPP devices are tall towers which would undergo and maintain stratification much more easily.

One thing that really shows a scam is the lame attempt to explain away something erroneous that is blatantly obvious.

It is blatantly obvious that there is a tremendous amount of water column mixing in the KPP tower. It can be observed in the videos. Obvious agitation of the surface water. Turbulence and swirling at depth. A chain of buckets being moved through a column of water not much larger than the buckets. The bucket, starting at the bottom, half empting from air injection, then slowly emptying all the way to the top. Completely filling then moving downward. There is just no way that the water column doesn't have a homogenous temperature from bottom to top.

The lame excuses to get around mixing are proof it is a scam. It would have been better just to admit mixing.

Lake stratification requires fairly quiescent fluid statics. Mixing from winds only penetrates a very shallow depth. The bottom receives no stirring. Ocean thermocline goes from 28 C to 8 C in the first thousand meters, then slowly to about 1 or 2 C at 5000 meters to 7000 meters or more. Give or take.

The more the scam is attempted to be covered up, the more the contradictions are apparent.

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You, as usual are entitled to your opinions.

After watching the experiments in this video, however,

https://youtu.be/GEYh8pI8JVE

my personal opinion is that hot and cold water are about as easy to mix together as oil and water, and in those demonstrations the stratification layers form where there were none before, only side by side, the hot water moving up and the cold moving down.

Stratification looks quite inevitable regardless of some agitation.

Anyway that was a post from 2014 from an anonymous individual on Overunity/Germany.

My current correspondent John, from Ki-Tech denies there is any thermo component but states that the KPP innovation has to do with the magnetic fields associated with the generator.

My personal view is that any stratification is only an assistance not a necessity.

The real POWER, IMO comes as a consequence of the temperature differential between the cold decompressed injected air as it continues to expand and take in heat and the relatively warm to hot tank water.

The observation on the German Overunity forum (2014) was that there were small floats INSIDE the buoyancy containers that would act as "valves".

The containers would let out air and take in water from the TOP warmer water.

If the "tennis balls" or ping pong balls or whatever float, then they would tend to plug the holes only when full of water on the way down and would trap hot water from the top of the tank and carry it down to the bottom, I would think.

So the purpose may have been to bring a heat supply down to serve as "fuel" to quickly warm the injected cold air to expand it quickly while maintaining the tank water substantially more cold and dense and therefore further enhancing the natural buoyancy to some degree.

The cold air would exchange heat with the warm water, so thermal mixing as the water gets displaced AND cooled by the expanding air might still be minimal.

If the air is compressed via an ideal isothermal 2:1 compression, then ideally fed to canisters, and then expanded via an ideal isothermal 1:2 expansion during ascent, there's no net work output possible.

You're thinking that 1:2 isothermal expansion + buoyancy > 2:1 isothermal compression, but ignoring that this buoyancy is a consequence of the isothermal expansion whereby 1:2 isothermal expansion = 2:1 isothermal compression.

The only way this KPP scheme can achieve Wpos>Wneg is via "expansion">compression. This is fairly simple...(1) replace water with high temp oil (2) place tube in sun (3) reduce air input to canisters

However, I prefer...(1) keep hot tube (2) nix bogus air compressor (3) inject water into canisters which flashes to steam (4) retire to Malta before Big Oil finds you

matt brown wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 6:54 pm If the air is compressed via an ideal isothermal 2:1 compression, then ideally fed to canisters, and then expanded via an ideal isothermal 1:2 expansion during ascent, there's no net work output possible.

You're thinking that 1:2 isothermal expansion + buoyancy > 2:1 isothermal compression, but ignoring that this buoyancy is a consequence of the isothermal expansion whereby 1:2 isothermal expansion = 2:1 isothermal compression.

The only way this KPP scheme can achieve Wpos>Wneg is via "expansion">compression. This is fairly simple...(1) replace water with high temp oil (2) place tube in sun (3) reduce air input to canisters

However, I prefer...(1) keep hot tube (2) nix bogus air compressor (3) inject water into canisters which flashes to steam (4) retire to Malta before Big Oil finds you

Keeping oil hot enough to flash water to steam would require considerably energy input to heat the oil.

Logically, it SOUNDS correct that 2:1 compression + 1:2 expansion results in no gain, however I'm not so sure based on my observations of the thermal properties of Stirling engines, which, of course, I think both you and "fool" refute or attribute to experimental error or some such thing.

However, IMO, there are some things that make me think this contraption could be a quite powerful and effective "ambient heat engine".

First of all, COOLING a gas is as effective as mechanical compression in terms of reducing the volume of the gas. So rapid cooling during compression cuts down the work load on the compressor tremendously.

As previously shown via Ideal gas Law, compressing and cooling air, then removing the pressure from a mere 2 atm back to 1 results in sub-zero temperature air, even per fools conservative calculations.

Now if you consider my Stirling engine experiments as indicative of anything, or my ideal gas law calculations, Isothermal expansion results in 100% conversion of heat into work, which results in cutting pressure by 1/2 which results in a return to the start volume.

In other words, in a Stirling engine the piston returns due to the 100% conversion of heat into work so at BDC the internal cylinder pressure is 1/2 ATM and external pressure returns the gas to its original volume and the piston returns almost all the way back to TDC,

So, translate that into this buoyancy scheme and consider the possibility that this heating / expansion / energy conversion / volume reduction cycle takes place isothermally and continuously all the way up this very tall cylinder of water.

Isothermal expansion means there is negligible change in temperature. So the gas essentially just keeps on absorbing heat and doing work as long as it is being restrained from a more rapid assent.

The gas just keeps on taking in heat like boiling water or melting ice, but does an equivalent amount of work, inch by inch, geared up multiple times so this slow progress results in rapid RPM and high efficiency at the generator.

Due to this continuous conversion of the influx of ambient heat into work, the gas expansion is very gradual and the rise in temperature of the gas is nearly non-existent as the work output is exactly equivalent to the heat input. But heat input is rapid and continuous.

Unlike the heat rejected to ambient by the compressor, the available ambient heat that moves in to replace it is inexhaustible and is also instantly and continuously converted to work output with almost negligible increase in temperature and volume other that from the ordinary pressure reduction as the canisters slowly rise and the water pressure is gradually reduced.

On top of that, only a relatively small volume of cold compressed air needs to be injected into the canisters in small metered doses as the cold compressed air will increase in volume during its travel up the tube.

If the air is compressed more than 2 ATM, of course, the injected temperature will drop accordingly and the heat intake and potential work output should also multiply in the same way any Stirling heat engines puts out more power with increased ∆T though there is no absolute volume change in terms of moles and no temperature change because there is 100% conversion of heat into work so there is no heat "rejected".

This slow moving buoyancy device could be the perfect isothermal ambient heat converter.

I'll tell you, I used to live on the beach in the summers growing up and did a whole lot of swimming with various flotation devices and I can tell you the force of buoyancy is no joke.

It would be nearly impossible to hold a gallon jug full of air a few feet below the surface.

We used to play games trying to stand on small Styrofoam mini surf boards. It would look like we were walking on water, my brother's and I, the small Styrofoam surf boards just a few inches below the surface, but standing that way it would be nearly impossible to maintain balance and the board would soon shoot out from under our feet ten feet into the air like a bullet.

The force of all those submerged air canisters has to be virtually irresistible, as "fool" suggested, it's a wonder the chains don't break or the drive shaft twist right off from the tremendous torque that likely develops.

What is the combined gear ratio of this thing anyway?

https://youtu.be/44UF_qCPrs4