Tesla's "Ambient Heat Engine" Experiment

[Jack]

I don't really see any chance.whatsoever of that working, to be honest.

Any elaboration on that?
Because I'm convinced it'll work with a delta T. And might with ambient air. I probably just lack the explanation skills.
I guess we'll find out. I'm happy to fail, but I will try anyway.

[Jack]

Aaron apparently, in his own words in this podcast thinks suppression of technology, at least in some circumstances, is "just good business practice".

https://www.podchaser.com/podcasts/the- ... -150784081

Hard to determine who are the "good guys" and who are the "bad guys" sometimes.

https://douktris.wordpress.com/2015/03/ ... urakami-2/

I'm not suggesting there is necessarily any substance to the accusations aimed at Aaron, just something to be aware of. There are always two sides to every story.

This fits the gut feel I got from him.

[Tom Booth]

I don't really see any chance.whatsoever of that working, to be honest.

Any elaboration on that?
Because I'm convinced it'll work with a delta T. And might with ambient air. I probably just lack the explanation skills.
I guess we'll find out. I'm happy to fail, but I will try anyway.

Maybe I'm not getting the full picture.

You have the turbine and pump.

There is a restriction, the nozzle, at the inlet.

Atmospheric pressure at the outlet?

There is no vacuum, no pressure differential that would cause the ambient air to pass through the nozzle.

[Jack]

There is a vacuum between the nozzle and the pump.
The pump should be sized so that it keeps a vacuum, even with the inflow of fluid.

That fluid's internal kinetic energy is converted to external kinetic energy (I'm sure I'm bastardizing the professional terms here) by the nozzle because it's pulled through by the vacuum.
This fluid will rapidly cool down and condensate.
This will start doing work on the turbine through adhesion and viscosity.
At the same time as it warms up from the work it will also cool down because it's being expanded by the pump.
The pump will pump it back up to pressure in the condensor.

For the ambient air engine this is the part that needs testing.
Since this pumping basically means "getting it up to pressure/temperature" the ambient fluid could help by giving off heat.

[Jack]

The thing that needs finding out is, can I harness enough kinetic energy from the initial conversion in the nozzle to be able to power the pump and have some left over.

[Tom Booth]

There is a vacuum between the nozzle and the pump.
...

Well, I don't want to discourage your efforts, I could always be wrong, it just seems like your putting the cart before the horse.

There would be a vacuum, if there was a vacuum to pull air through the nozzle to turn the turbine to turn the pump to create a vacuum.

But you don't have a vacuum at the outlet of the pump.

You could spin up the turbines with a motor to create a vacuum, but there is nothing to maintain it, if the motor were removed.

The pump will pump it back up to pressure in the condensor.

Where is the condenser?

I thought you had said the pump released air back to atmosphere.

A few posts back:

So the pump doesn't need a housing in my view. Just discs flinging cold air into the atmosphere.

viewtopic.php?p=23056#p23056

[Jack]

In an ambient air version, yeah the pump would pump back into the atmosphere. In a version with Delta T it will pump into the condensor. Ideally the pump is the condensor.

The means to sustaining the vacuum is the turbine. And this is the part that needs testing. Is there enough kinetic energy in the fluid coming out of the nozzle to be able to keep powering the pump with the turbine and sustain the cold hole.

Sure, when stationarity there is no vacuum. But once it reaches the right speed there hopefully is plenty.

[Fool]

Jack, I think you could use a vacuum cleaner and mason jar with a pinwheel like turbine inside for a simple test. A bit more testing could be done with a five gallon bucket and larger turbine.

The following is an interesting homemade kinda inside out Tesla turbine:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h02V6gdxDc8

This fluid will rapidly cool down and condensate.

This theory has come up by more than one person. I don't know how a nozzle restricting a flow into a vacuum causing a liquid to boil from its own internal energy/temperature and the boiling point being below it's ambient temperature will suddenly condense causing the boiling point to further be reduced so it will condense further lowering the boiling point? It won't.

The only ways to condense a gas is either to cool it below its boiling point, or raise it's pressure, and boiling point, and temperature, and then cooling it below it's boiling point. Unfortunately both those ways require a removal of heat. A very small percentage can be condensed in an expansion through a turbine, usually detrimental to the turbine abrasive.

The Linde process requires immense removal of heat before and during expansion.

People have tried to accomplish what you suggest, they failed to get it to work. Your turbine should run just fine as long as you are putting more energy into the pump than the turbine is producing. Your theory is suggesting perpetual motion, greater efficiency than your temperature spread, and over unity.

[Jack]

As I understand a nozzle it will lower pressure and cool down fluid as it converts it into kinetic energy.
I've seen people do experiments with bottles and sudden release of pressure where the fluid condenses.
I'm not expecting it to last very long as the pump will be expanding it, but for a brief moment it should.

I don't think it's perpetual motion in the Delta T setup.
And any ambient air engine will be questionable in theory. But theory is made up by man to try and understand the ways of nature. I don't think we know all yet. It would be quite the arrogant statement to say that we do.

[Jack]

The test you propose will indeed show I can use a pump to power a turbine. But it will be a far cry from the conditions I think are needed to make it work.

I mean to test my theories soon enough. I'll keep you guys informed whether it succeeds or fails.

[Jack]

I should point out that I'm talking about a CD nozzle. I didn't make that clear.

[Jack]

https://youtu.be/cXpuo3YHOn0?si=alcpY0_aPWMtNvXv

This is what I'm basing it on.
But as I mentioned before, it might work or it might not. I'm going to try anyway. Initially as a delta T engine.
Let's see.

[Fool]

Jack, I offer no disrespect. I think you should try it. We probably don't "know" anything. However, lots of people, some are scientists, have tried lots of things and gotten them to apparently work. Reinventing the wheel, or worse reinventing a failed square wheel, is time wasted. I've learned a lot from watching others. Guessing is usually worse than learning, especially learning from others mistakes.

Here is a web page that may help with your design of the de Laval nozzle:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Lava ... c%20energy.


The bottle cloud demonstration didn't mention that it wasn't a vacuum that caused the clouds, nor did it mention that heat was leaving the pressurized bottle before the pressure was released. It is a dew point phenomenon.

The vacuum cleaner can be used as a vacuum or a pressure pump. Pressurizing the nozzle may be more effective, like supercharging an engine. It could also affect a closed system, recycling the output back to the input.

After the operation check with a vacuum cleaner, a proper pump can be designed and built.

Heating the input stream may also help. Good luck. Carry on.

[Jack]

I didn't take it as disrespect, no worries.

And yeah, heating the steam is what I mean with a delta T system.

I take the bottle experiment as a sudden pressure drop. Whether that is from over pressure to ambient or from ambient to vacuum shouldn't matter. And if the nozzle is sized right the fluid should be well below its boiling point in vacuum. At least until it starts working on the turbine.

I'm a stubborn guy. If you can show me examples of it falling with exactly the setup I have in mind I might believe you, but otherwise I'm going to carry on haha. It's stuck in my head and I need to try. For a number of reasons.

[Tom Booth]

A fairly simple experiment I'd like to try when I get a turbine, which may be in a week or so, tracking says it is on the way, from China, would be this:

Compress_20240602_080527_7386.jpg (19.02 KiB) Viewed 2652 times

This would, of course, have to be a "saturated vapor with all air removed from the system. This could be achieved by boiling the water in the left side until steam drove all the air out of the entire system before capping it off.

Everything then needs to be 100% air tight.

Jeremiah has a demonstration of this, but using warm (below 100°C - 94°C ?) water, not all the way down to ambient heat temperature, with a continuous 400 watt load.

https://youtu.be/xYMyNhBeH9k

There are a few additional similar videos.

The ice for condensation is essential, but the basic idea is that the turbine taking out "work" ( the 400 watts or whatever power out) reduces the temperature of the "exhaust" from the turbine.

There was talk of using a "pump" or dual turbine to "pull a vacuum" at the turbine exhaust.

In one video I think, the noise from the turbine turned out to actually be from ice forming in the turbine due to the drop in temperature.

If the exhaust is that cold, pretty obviously the ice bath would not melt all that fast.