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People, this is why I won't be joining Tommy's website. Lack of honesty and fair treatment.
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Proell Effect
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matt brown
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm
Re: Proell Effect
I'm still trying to sort out this Proell Effect...
Consider this continuously INSULATED Cv sequence with 300k and 600k gas values when DP is midway. Remaining values are totally arbitrary and I've chosen to use a partial sweep where T swing is up or down 10% for illustration purposes only. The basic Proell premise is that a 'secondary' T increase occurs when the gas is displaced from cold to hot space and that a 'secondary' T decrease occurs when the gas is displaced from hot to cold space. IOW when regen gas flows between hot and cold then T decreases more than commonly thought and when regen gas flows between cold and hot then T increases more than commonly thought. However, P will also increase and decrease more than 'commonly thought' proportional this T anomaly.
The major headbanger here is NOT that this violates the ideal gas law, but rather where is this magic work coming from that drives this effect ??? I can only assume that if we consider everything ideal that this magic work is passing back and forth via heat gradient during regen.
Assuming this same sequence, if we remove the insulation during the 'expansion' half of the cycle then values change. I choose to use the expansion half when <300k and add 300k ambient heat, but just as easily could used the 'compression' half of the cycle to remove >600k heat. In this context, the game is adding ambient heat into this system one cycle at a time. Obviously, there's a major flaw here...when T changes in the 'cold' space then T changes in the 'hot' space. So, per this sequence, adding ambient heat to cold space when insulation is removed (2A) will also increase hot space T via gas flow due to density change.
Therefore, this is a more likely sequence where the idea is 300k ambient heat input during the expansion half of cycle when cold space is <300k and later discharge this same quantity of heat during the compression half of cycle when the cold space is >300k. I assume this is what the Rauen patent claims, but I haven't studied it.
4A shows cold space heat drop to only 330k to support this sequence. I'm currently clueless as to what real values this could entail since I need to check some actual PVT values...
- Proell 1.png (6.33 KiB) Viewed 2220 times
The major headbanger here is NOT that this violates the ideal gas law, but rather where is this magic work coming from that drives this effect ??? I can only assume that if we consider everything ideal that this magic work is passing back and forth via heat gradient during regen.
- Proell 2.png (8.1 KiB) Viewed 2220 times
- Proell 3.png (8.67 KiB) Viewed 2220 times
4A shows cold space heat drop to only 330k to support this sequence. I'm currently clueless as to what real values this could entail since I need to check some actual PVT values...
Re: Proell Effect
The major headbanger here is NOT that this violates the ideal gas law, but rather where is this magic work coming from that drives this effect ??? I can only assume that if we consider everything ideal that this magic work is passing back and forth via heat gradient during regen
Matt, the way I see it the work is coming from the potential energy stored in the gas as pressure. But we have to see this pressure as energy that was put into the system by either the energy in the atmosphere or pumped in with more work.
An analogy that hit me a while back is if one were to dig a 10ft deep hole in the ground, that initial work expenditure can be used to flow ground level water into, indefinitely. And no I am not eluding to a “cold hole”.
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matt brown
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm
Re: Proell Effect
My twisted logic here is that Qin after cold space expands = Qout after cold space compresses. In this simple graphic, I'm just trying to show the heat pump scheme where the cycle follows most conventional thermo. I really need to check some actual PVT values, but I haven't had much time lately.
This surely is impossible under current 2nd law definitions. Consider a mythical engine with ideal isothermal compression and expansion. During each isothermal process there's no change in internal energy, so engine gains Wnet only when both isothermal processes are different. But even with 100% regen between these isothermal processes Wnet relates to deltaT where the major shortcoming is the work of compression via external means. Carnot buzz is nothing more than the ratio of Wpos during expansion vs Wneg during compression.
Meanwhile, this crazy Proell scheme is akin an adiabatic gas spring with Qin after expansion and Qout after compression, but where expansion and compression are driven by internal thermal "work" vs external mechanical work. I'm limiting my study to heat pump effects for now, so just consider this as only a potential means to suck ambient heat out of 'nowhere' (couldn't resist) and use it to feed a conventional heat engine.
This surely is impossible under current 2nd law definitions. Consider a mythical engine with ideal isothermal compression and expansion. During each isothermal process there's no change in internal energy, so engine gains Wnet only when both isothermal processes are different. But even with 100% regen between these isothermal processes Wnet relates to deltaT where the major shortcoming is the work of compression via external means. Carnot buzz is nothing more than the ratio of Wpos during expansion vs Wneg during compression.
Meanwhile, this crazy Proell scheme is akin an adiabatic gas spring with Qin after expansion and Qout after compression, but where expansion and compression are driven by internal thermal "work" vs external mechanical work. I'm limiting my study to heat pump effects for now, so just consider this as only a potential means to suck ambient heat out of 'nowhere' (couldn't resist) and use it to feed a conventional heat engine.
Re: Proell Effect
Ambient heat isn't "nowhere" its everywhere.
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matt brown
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm
Re: Proell Effect
Assuming Proell effect is similar my graphics, I have no problem with Qin and Qout due to T swing, and when Qin=Qout then energy balance appears valid. My problem is the overall concept where dU thruout this sequence is suspect. Simply assuming that regen is an energy transformer is a slippery slope...
Tom - according to my graphic, ambient input could be replaced by anything (why limit scheme to lame 300k) and this is a giveaway that something's missing beyond 1st and 2nd law buzz.
Tom - according to my graphic, ambient input could be replaced by anything (why limit scheme to lame 300k) and this is a giveaway that something's missing beyond 1st and 2nd law buzz.
Re: Proell Effect
Only in that, generally speaking, ambient heat is free for the taking. That could include hot springs, hot greenhouses, or volcanos etc. so not necessarily limited to 300°K but absent living next to a volcano above ambient generally cost something, however, my only intention was to point out ambient heat is "everywhere" not that it is necessarily better or the only possible source of heat.matt brown wrote: ↑Sun Dec 15, 2024 1:27 pm ....
Tom - according to my graphic, ambient input could be replaced by anything (why limit scheme to lame 300k).....
Re: Proell Effect
IMO, the so-called 'Proell Effect does not produce any energy, not is there more output than in.
As Matt stated: "...akin an adiabatic gas spring with Qin after expansion and Qout after compression, but where expansion and compression are driven by internal thermal "work" vs external mechanical work."
In other words, a heat driven heat pump, which as previously stated is nothing new. I.e. Viulliumere heat pump.
The effect however is a phenomenon in itself, independent of the Viulliumere cycle, and as I've been intimating for years in here and demonstrating with my experiments and YouTube videos, the phenomena is also inherent in the quote ordinary Stirling engine.
Unrecognized it can be something that is taxing on engine efficiency, but recognized as a real thing I think it could be taken better advantage of through better engine design.
As Matt stated: "...akin an adiabatic gas spring with Qin after expansion and Qout after compression, but where expansion and compression are driven by internal thermal "work" vs external mechanical work."
In other words, a heat driven heat pump, which as previously stated is nothing new. I.e. Viulliumere heat pump.
The effect however is a phenomenon in itself, independent of the Viulliumere cycle, and as I've been intimating for years in here and demonstrating with my experiments and YouTube videos, the phenomena is also inherent in the quote ordinary Stirling engine.
Unrecognized it can be something that is taxing on engine efficiency, but recognized as a real thing I think it could be taken better advantage of through better engine design.
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matt brown
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm
Re: Proell Effect
Here's the basic Proell effect during expansion
Almost conveniently, both hot space and cold space gas are expanding at the same rate, so there's no gas 'redistribution' during transfer (thanks to uniform pressure). I didn't check C and E values, but expect these follow this sequence since I saw similar patterns during my anomaly chase.
Note that T swing is a crude 'ideal' that's disconnected from actual regen T gradient, but within this 300-600k example, each hot gas volume 'shrinks' in half during regen, then expands to fill cold volume. And if regen T gradient at A wasn't constant, then these B-F T values would be valid and a "cold hole" would appear credible (227k is a frosty -50F).
Kinda funny how asshole Tom knows all this (and more) about this anomaly in 1 month, but nearly nothing about common thermo in 15 years...
- Proell effect FEA.png (26.92 KiB) Viewed 1802 times
Almost conveniently, both hot space and cold space gas are expanding at the same rate, so there's no gas 'redistribution' during transfer (thanks to uniform pressure). I didn't check C and E values, but expect these follow this sequence since I saw similar patterns during my anomaly chase.
Note that T swing is a crude 'ideal' that's disconnected from actual regen T gradient, but within this 300-600k example, each hot gas volume 'shrinks' in half during regen, then expands to fill cold volume. And if regen T gradient at A wasn't constant, then these B-F T values would be valid and a "cold hole" would appear credible (227k is a frosty -50F).
Kinda funny how asshole Tom knows all this (and more) about this anomaly in 1 month, but nearly nothing about common thermo in 15 years...
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matt brown
- Posts: 785
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm
Re: Proell Effect
PS - post regen expansion and T values are averaged together within each frame
Re: Proell Effect
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Matt, I had a thought about this. Your diagrams show the effect quite well, excellent. I was thinking that in a real engine, the chunks of mass you have depicted all get stirred around. The effect is the same, but refected in average temperature. Average pressure coordinated to crank position volume is the best that can be measured. The regenerator will respond to varying degrees of the average temperature as crank position volume changes and mass transfers through the regenerator.
That, perhaps, will force the regenerator temperature at both ends to be closer to the middle temperature. Meaning the gas temperature never gets to Tc or Th, on average as measured.
That would mean the Proell effect would be detrimental at best. Hysteresis. The first gas going through the regenerator would be warmer than Tc and the rest would be progressively worse. Compression while in the cold space would warm it more, and the regenerator would pick up heat at a higher temperature on the way back through. The opposite would happen on the hot side. Compression isn't separated from displacer action like an ideal depiction.
An indicator diagram still is then, the best method of understanding what is going on inside these engines. And needs to be diced up into small chunks to measure.
PV=nRT for each chunk of n has to be modeled as if each chunk is small enough to mix, absorb heat, be pushed around by the piston and displacer walls, and constrained by more walls, while picking up and losing heat, using fluid dynamics continuity equations. P, V, T, and R all change. Or use the real gas equations, like Van der Waals. Yikes! Or simply use Schmidt theory for a first hand guess, as the engineers in Japan did for their large LTD, design.
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Matt, I had a thought about this. Your diagrams show the effect quite well, excellent. I was thinking that in a real engine, the chunks of mass you have depicted all get stirred around. The effect is the same, but refected in average temperature. Average pressure coordinated to crank position volume is the best that can be measured. The regenerator will respond to varying degrees of the average temperature as crank position volume changes and mass transfers through the regenerator.
That, perhaps, will force the regenerator temperature at both ends to be closer to the middle temperature. Meaning the gas temperature never gets to Tc or Th, on average as measured.
That would mean the Proell effect would be detrimental at best. Hysteresis. The first gas going through the regenerator would be warmer than Tc and the rest would be progressively worse. Compression while in the cold space would warm it more, and the regenerator would pick up heat at a higher temperature on the way back through. The opposite would happen on the hot side. Compression isn't separated from displacer action like an ideal depiction.
An indicator diagram still is then, the best method of understanding what is going on inside these engines. And needs to be diced up into small chunks to measure.
PV=nRT for each chunk of n has to be modeled as if each chunk is small enough to mix, absorb heat, be pushed around by the piston and displacer walls, and constrained by more walls, while picking up and losing heat, using fluid dynamics continuity equations. P, V, T, and R all change. Or use the real gas equations, like Van der Waals. Yikes! Or simply use Schmidt theory for a first hand guess, as the engineers in Japan did for their large LTD, design.
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Re: Proell Effect
Funny how not that long ago you were arguing with VincentG and I that no such constant volume compression or expansion processes could exist at all.matt brown wrote: ↑Mon Dec 23, 2024 3:10 am ....
Kinda funny how asshole Tom knows all this (and more) about this anomaly in 1 month, but nearly nothing about common thermo in 15 years...
viewtopic.php?p=19486#p19486
The smallness of your pea size brain could not encompass the concept.
Your lies put your credibility in the toilet.
You also obviously still have no idea what your talking about with your cartoon cycle attempts at modeling the process
- Proell effect FEA.png (26.92 KiB) Viewed 1720 times
LOL
Re: Proell Effect
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When PV=nRT is used plainly, simply, the assumption is that the values are consistent throughout the entire gas mass contained in the volume. If not consistent, an average is assumed, but that gives average pressure,, temperature, and density throughout the volume.
Matt has displayed a model where there is no mixing, a Tommy erroneous hot and cold don't mix even when forced, fantasy model. During that model Matt has correctly used PV=nRT for each mass element. It requires the system to be broken up into moving small chunks, of mass, or groups number of molecules. n1, n2, n3, nc4, n5, ... E.T.C..... The closed system, now becomes a group of smaller open systems, where 'n' for each system is constant. And Temperature, Volume, and pressure, are modeled as if the entire little chunk has the same value, or average, over the entire chunk. This is a typical Finite Element Analysis (FEA) process. This process is well above this websites education level. Very few readers will understand finite element analysis.
Matt has drawn up a very good beginners demonstration of how it works in one example. To put what he did more mathematically I'll provide some equations, sort of:
The system is broken up into little elements, small enough to average the values across the element. Each element has a different designated identifier. For demonstration here, let's use alphabetic designators. a, b, c, d, e, ... Often in FEA it is broken up into small set volumes of solid mass, such as for a steel beam. Matt has broken it up into constant chunks of mass, or numbers of molecules 'n'. The constant 'n' elements, become na, nb, nc, nd, ne, ... Matt assumes no mixing inside.or outside a chunk.
The relevant equations become, sort of:
Pa1•Va1=na•R•Ta1
Pb1•Vb1=nb•R•Tb1
Pc1•Vc1=nc•R•Tc1
Pd1•Vd1=nd•R•Td1
Pe1•Ve1=ne•R•Te1
As the states change, there is first second and third states, the equations become sort of:
Pa2•Va2=na•R•Ta2
Pb2•Vb2=nb•R•Tb2
Pc2•Vc2=nc•R•Tc2
Pd2•Vd2=nd•R•Td2
Pe2•Ve2=ne•R•Te2
I can't go into any more detail than that. Notice the "n's" don't change between state 1 and 2. And the R doesn't change. R is constant. Ideally R would be changed for each change in P, V, and T, by a giant lookup table.
Additionally the heat transfer Q=n•Cv•∆T would also be entered. And if mixing, fluid dynamics would be employed, either the continuity equation, or kinetic theory, or kinetic plus Lenard-Jones.
All this to get a little better modeling than the Schmidt Cycle. Not worth our worry here. Any hysteresis/Proell effect will be minimal. If beneficial, the engine will be slightly better than modeled. If detrimental, more likely, it will be slightly worse than modeled. Either way it will e slightly closer to the Car not Limit, or slightly worse. Most likely worse. Sorry nature is a cruel beast.
Being colder than Tc means heat will flow into the gas through the cold plate, making the cold side of the regenerator hotter. Meaning the gas in the cold area eventually will not ever be as cold as the cold plate. Like trying to use the force of friction to make friction lower
When PV=nRT is used plainly, simply, the assumption is that the values are consistent throughout the entire gas mass contained in the volume. If not consistent, an average is assumed, but that gives average pressure,, temperature, and density throughout the volume.
Matt has displayed a model where there is no mixing, a Tommy erroneous hot and cold don't mix even when forced, fantasy model. During that model Matt has correctly used PV=nRT for each mass element. It requires the system to be broken up into moving small chunks, of mass, or groups number of molecules. n1, n2, n3, nc4, n5, ... E.T.C..... The closed system, now becomes a group of smaller open systems, where 'n' for each system is constant. And Temperature, Volume, and pressure, are modeled as if the entire little chunk has the same value, or average, over the entire chunk. This is a typical Finite Element Analysis (FEA) process. This process is well above this websites education level. Very few readers will understand finite element analysis.
Matt has drawn up a very good beginners demonstration of how it works in one example. To put what he did more mathematically I'll provide some equations, sort of:
The system is broken up into little elements, small enough to average the values across the element. Each element has a different designated identifier. For demonstration here, let's use alphabetic designators. a, b, c, d, e, ... Often in FEA it is broken up into small set volumes of solid mass, such as for a steel beam. Matt has broken it up into constant chunks of mass, or numbers of molecules 'n'. The constant 'n' elements, become na, nb, nc, nd, ne, ... Matt assumes no mixing inside.or outside a chunk.
The relevant equations become, sort of:
Pa1•Va1=na•R•Ta1
Pb1•Vb1=nb•R•Tb1
Pc1•Vc1=nc•R•Tc1
Pd1•Vd1=nd•R•Td1
Pe1•Ve1=ne•R•Te1
As the states change, there is first second and third states, the equations become sort of:
Pa2•Va2=na•R•Ta2
Pb2•Vb2=nb•R•Tb2
Pc2•Vc2=nc•R•Tc2
Pd2•Vd2=nd•R•Td2
Pe2•Ve2=ne•R•Te2
I can't go into any more detail than that. Notice the "n's" don't change between state 1 and 2. And the R doesn't change. R is constant. Ideally R would be changed for each change in P, V, and T, by a giant lookup table.
Additionally the heat transfer Q=n•Cv•∆T would also be entered. And if mixing, fluid dynamics would be employed, either the continuity equation, or kinetic theory, or kinetic plus Lenard-Jones.
All this to get a little better modeling than the Schmidt Cycle. Not worth our worry here. Any hysteresis/Proell effect will be minimal. If beneficial, the engine will be slightly better than modeled. If detrimental, more likely, it will be slightly worse than modeled. Either way it will e slightly closer to the Car not Limit, or slightly worse. Most likely worse. Sorry nature is a cruel beast.
Being colder than Tc means heat will flow into the gas through the cold plate, making the cold side of the regenerator hotter. Meaning the gas in the cold area eventually will not ever be as cold as the cold plate. Like trying to use the force of friction to make friction lower
Re: Proell Effect
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In other words. Matt's "cartoons" [SIC] 'comics', diagrams are correctly showing what is going on, at least within the limitations of simple modeling
I'd like to know if it's true, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Tommy gets all his science from Saturday morning TV shows? LOL
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In other words. Matt's "cartoons" [SIC] 'comics', diagrams are correctly showing what is going on, at least within the limitations of simple modeling
I'd like to know if it's true, beyond a shadow of doubt, that Tommy gets all his science from Saturday morning TV shows? LOL
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Re: Proell Effect
La de dah...
Have either of you two even read the PDF Matt posted at the start of the thread?
Do you have any clue at all?
Here is a summary:
- proell_effect_summary.jpg (536.41 KiB) Viewed 1644 times
Strange that you two seem to be now trying to claim priority of discovery on a "free energy", "perpetual motion", second law violation type phenomenon after all the time you both have spent in here arguing (with me) against exactly that.
I suppose next you'll imagine you have "invented" Tesla's "cold hole" / "Self-Acting-Engine" and then wonder why Tom Booth thinks he knows anything at all about the subject you two have "discovered" for the first time.
What a couple of clowns.