Air Lift Turbine Generator

[Tom Booth]

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It is NOT surprising that larger molecules have higher boiling temperatures. It is not surprising that polar molecules with covalent bonding, or even ionic bonding, have higher boiling points than Van der Waals forces. Classical theory discovered that in the 1800"s and incorporated that into steam tables and phase diagrams, used for steam engine, and other, design.

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IMO heat pump technology depends upon compression and expansion of a fluid. Same as a Stirling engine.

Logically there should be no gain from compressing and then decompressing a substance. To say "it is easier to move heat than to create heat" doesn't really explain how a heat pump COP can be >1.

So, there is more involved than just "classical theory".

I think tapping into the natural attractive and repulsive forces that become significant near phase change pressure and temperature and especially for larger molecule substances that deviate more from "ideal" classical gas behavior has more to do with the apparent "extra energy" than the "it's easier to move heat" explanation.

In other words, there is no reason these properties of attraction and repulsion or "non-ideal" gas behavior cannot be taken advantage of in heat engines just as in heat pumps.

Classical theory cannot explain heat pumps with a COP > 1. According to classical theory that is just as "impossible" as a heat engine with an efficiency > 1.

[Fool]

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The following is the second posting, first reply to this thread:

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Heating and cooling necessary.

I like it.

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And your ignorant reply:

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Heating and cooling necessary.

I like it.

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Heating, yes.

Cooling?

Where do you see cooling?

It says thermal energy is CONVERTED to kinetic energy.

There is no cold "sink" or "reservoir" anywhere in the system. No dumping of "waste heat".

"Almost 5X the output of PV on ¼ the land"

So if PV is about 20% efficiency....

X5 = 100%

X4 = 400% efficiency? (or COP)

These guys are commercial cascading heat pump manufacturers.

https://youtu.be/wSgv5NwtByk

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[Fool]

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You've been trying to convince us that it is a closed and isolated system since.

I agree it is discussed with the idea of no cooling. A first and second law breaker logical fallacy. Sorry. Matt and I are the only ones that recognize this here.

And your first, introductory post to this thread is very lame on this point.

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[Fool]

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Classical theory cannot explain heat pumps with a COP > 1. According to classical theory that is just as "impossible" as a heat engine with an efficiency > 1.

COP is a concept defined by classical theory.

COP = Th/(Th+Tc) maximum.

COP= Qh/W value for measured real heat pumps.

That maximum value is usually higher by twice, than for real heat pumps. Something to strive for, but never exceed.

Proven over and over again by every heat pump built.

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[Fool]

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Actually, I'm the first one to bring up the thermal engine idea in this thread. I now oppose it because the groups involved are denying any thermal conditions. You are the only one striving to put it back in. Of course, your understanding of thermodynamics is considerably erroneous, so it serves no purpose to explain it.

Again your little LTD insulated engine experiment has produced zero output power, so you have very short legs to stand on here.

In other words, how are you going to overcome the massive amount of weight opposition using a tiny whiny little bit of delta Temperature!

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Thermal engines that produce power require cooling. Prove that wrong.

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[Tom Booth]

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You've been trying to convince us that it is a closed and isolated system since.

No I have not, liar.

What is your mental handicap that you seem to never get anything I post straight and habitually misrepresent my views?

You're a lunatic.

A system that utilizes ambient heat is obviously not "isolated" numb nuts

[Tom Booth]

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Classical theory cannot explain heat pumps with a COP > 1. According to classical theory that is just as "impossible" as a heat engine with an efficiency > 1.

COP is a concept defined by classical theory.

COP = Th/(Th+Tc) maximum.

COP= Qh/W value for measured real heat pumps.

That maximum value is usually higher by twice, than for real heat pumps. Something to strive for, but never exceed.

Proven over and over again by every heat pump built.

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The ideal gas law does not recognize phase change. All "ideal" gases are gas all the way to absolute zero, so a phase change heat pump is possible how?

[Tom Booth]

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Actually, I'm the first one to bring up the thermal engine idea in this thread. I now oppose it because the groups involved are denying any thermal conditions. You are the only one striving to put it back in. Of course, your understanding of thermodynamics is considerably erroneous, so it serves no purpose to explain it.

Again your little LTD insulated engine experiment has produced zero output power, so you have very short legs to stand on here.

In other words, how are you going to overcome the massive amount of weight opposition using a tiny whiny little bit of delta Temperature!

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Thermal engines that produce power require cooling. Prove that wrong.

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I have, over and over again. Watch my videos. Experimental results trump all your theories in my book.

[Tom Booth]

Kind of strange that this video has only had a few views in two years.

https://youtu.be/Y4Qt92a6sgg

[Tom Booth]

I found this comment (originally in Russian) on a YouTube video about the KPP device in response to the question "who was the original inventor".

Someone responded: (screenshot of the translation):

KPP_ thermal_energu.jpg (183.32 KiB) Viewed 1022 times

Of course, a heat engine can be made to operate on the surrounding ambient heat by supplying cold.

By compressing the air, heat is driven off, so then when the air is injected into the canisters of the buoyancy engine it can reabsorb the heat that was given up during compression.

As the ambient heat is taken in, the buoyancy increases with the result that the ambient heat is converted into the mechanical energy of the buoyancy generator.

This is a clear example of one embodiment of Tesla's "Self-Acting-Engine" or ambient heat engine, the principles of which he described back in 1900 in his article "Increasing Human Energy".

To get at the limitless heat energy in the environment it is necessary to create a "Cold Hole". so the heat can flow in.

The buoyancy canisters in the KPP device full of expanding cold air serve that purpose.

But because the process is going on inside the tank and is essentially isothermal this thermal aspect has been difficult to detect so has mostly gone unrecognized.

[Fool]

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Kind of strange that this video has only had a few views in two years.

I'm surprised any video associated with Rosch has any views at all. The power of click bait, I guess. Conceal what the video is until after it is clicked on. BFHTD. (Big Fat Hairy Tail Deal). I didn't watch it either.

I read the comments. Tom, here, still doesn't understand the difference,

Between:

A drinking bird that works between two temperatures. Ambient, and, lower than ambient (by evaporated heat carried off cooling).

And from:

A single temperature buoyancy power tower. No evaporation. Violation of the first and second laws.


Hint: Evaporation is cooling. Heat is carried away from the system at a lower temperature by removal of heat by the colder air mass flowing away. It is an open process, outside of the bird.

It cools below atmospheric pressure boiling temperature because effectively it is boiling at a reduced pressure. In chemistry it is called 'partial pressure'. It also depends on relative humidity. How much water dry air can absorb at the ambient temperature. It also reduces the air temperature, further reducing how much water it can absorb. Just like pulling a vacuum on a pool of water, only different. The bird only works if powered by an outside stream of dry and warm air. Sealed in a dome causing no evaporation, it becomes one temperature, it stops. Hence the power tower would stop.

Expansive heat drop is adiabatic, no heat is carried off. The opposite is true of compressive heat rise, no heat is added. Work-heat-temperature relationship travels in the opposite direction to an engine cycle, for the resultant; total cyclic net work input. It becomes important which direction on a processes path travel proceeds. Left, work in. Right, work out. Higher temperature, more work. Lower temperature less work.

There are so many intertwined processes in nature. It is difficult to take one idea and apply it across-the-board. Water turning to gas doesn't always happen at the same temperature at any single measured pressure. Partial pressures must be considered. Atmospheric chemical mixture affects it.

Yes. I know. I'm an idiot. If true (and it isn't) I'm an idiot that correctly knows more about natural thermodynamics than you ever will. That will continue because you erroneously think that knowing less makes you smarter (it only makes you think you are smarter, hence the 'ignorance is bliss', metaphor).

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[Fool]

I found this comment (originally in Russian) on a YouTube video about the KPP device in response to the question "who was the original inventor".

Someone responded: (screenshot of the translation):



Of course, a heat engine can be made to operate on the surrounding ambient heat by supplying cold.

By compressing the air, heat is driven off, so then when the air is injected into the canisters of the buoyancy engine it can reabsorb the heat that was given up during compression.

As the ambient heat is taken in, the buoyancy increases with the result that the ambient heat is converted into the mechanical energy of the buoyancy generator.

This is a clear example of one embodiment of Tesla's "Self-Acting-Engine" or ambient heat engine, the principles of which he described back in 1900 in his article "Increasing Human Energy".

To get at the limitless heat energy in the environment it is necessary to create a "Cold Hole". so the heat can flow in.

The buoyancy canisters in the KPP device full of expanding cold air serve that purpose.

But because the process is going on inside the tank and is essentially isothermal this thermal aspect has been difficult to detect so has mostly gone unrecognized.

"Of course, a heat engine can be made to operate on the surrounding ambient heat by supplying cold."

You forgot to end that with, 'by adding work. It takes an input of work to refrigerate the supply of cold.'

"By compressing the air, heat is driven off, so then when the air is injected into the canisters of the buoyancy engine it can reabsorb the heat that was given up during compression."

That is called a closed isolated system. Your description lacks any heat being input to the system. It only describes heat being recycled. That is a violation of both the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

Furthermore, compression just raises the temperature, to drive the heat off it must have a colder sink. If sinked to the water tower the temperature of the water will increase so the air being compressed will be hotter, so more work and higher temperatures will result. Friction will add to that. Maybe that is why there was the comment that the system has to be shutdown to cool so it won't overheat. (And so they can recharge the batteries and pressure tank.)

The air expanding as it rises will not cool anymore than the work put in to compress it. Isothermal.

Assuming that everything is perfect and the air reaches the top at ambient temperature. That allows ambient heat can enter the system at constant temperature.

Ta = ambient temperature
Th= above that
Tc = below that
Tw slightly warmer than ambient
Tb slightly below ambient ambient

Ta is compressed to Th, work in is at Th or Tw. Highest work needed WTh, in.
It is cooled to Tw by water column.
It is injected into a bin at Tc, warming to Tb. No work in or out, energy loss to pumping. This is the same a picking up the water column and slipping in a slug of air.
It is colder than the water so picks up heat as the bin accents. It expands as it ascends. It is at Tb this is the least amount of work given WTb, out.

WTb is less than WTh. Total Work gained is Wout - Win = WTb - WTh.

Since WTh is larger than WTb total work out will be negative, meaning it uses more work than it produces. So again the claims for the system are dubious. Even when thermal processes are considered. Not to mention all the losses in the mechanism and thermal processes, such as the Joule–Thomson loss injecting air into the bin.

"But because the process is going on inside the tank and is essentially isothermal this thermal aspect has been difficult to detect so has mostly gone unrecognized."

I recognized it with my first post with, 'heating and cooling required'. Solar, outside heat input, hot water. Cooling the air compressor with outside ambient cold, heat rejection for WTh out, and WTb compression in. Opposite of the description you've provided.

Yes. I know I'm an idiot that knows more science than Tom Booth. Thankfully.

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[Tom Booth]

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...Tom, here, still doesn't understand the difference,

Between:

A drinking bird that works between two temperatures. Ambient, and, lower than ambient (by evaporated heat carried off cooling).

And from:

A single temperature buoyancy power tower. No evaporation. Violation of the first and second laws.

And you don't, and probably never will understand the similarities.

The buoyancy tower is not exactly a single temperature system. Do you understand isothermal heat intake when heat is added to boil water but the temperature remains constant? Same principle when ice melts.

Same idea when a gas expands isothermally to drive a piston to power an engine, in that case the heat intake is converted 100% to power output so heat is taken in but there is no rise in temperature because an equivalent amount of "work" in Joules goes out at the same instant.

Heat is taken away from the drinking Bird by evaporation, but there is very little temperature change. Likewise ambient heat is absorbed at the base of the bird, but there is no increase in temperature above ambient. Heat goes in but is not apparent, obvious or measurable.

In the buoyancy engine too, the water is heated by the Proell effect as the hot compressed air is delivered. The water takes in the heat of compression. This makes the compression easier by water cooling.

Then when the the air is released into the canisters it absorbs back heat as it expands, so the heat of compression is recovered.

These heat transfers are nearly perfectly isothermal so there are no obvious temperature changes but the fact that a copious amount of energy is rapidly going in and being converted to mechanical and electrical power output is an inescapable logical and science based common sense conclusion following known thermodynamic principles.

[Tom Booth]

A bit annoying, but makes me wonder.

There was a comment left on this video:

https://youtu.be/7pnYXEJP3eY

To the effect that the Roche buoyancy contraption could not work and some mathematical calculations were provided to show this, then it was stated that for such a system to actually work and produce several times .more output than input the injected air would have to be refrigerated to make it cold and the water would have to be heated, then the air would.be able to expand absorbing heat from the water and ambient surroundings, that would increase the buoyancy so extra power could be taken off the system, but because that would take additional energy to refrigerate the air and heat the water it was a scam.

So I left a follow up comment pointing out that by compressing the air the tank water was heated by the Proell effect (heat transfered from the hot compressed air to the water through the delivery pipe), from the heat of compression and that this also caused the air to be water cooled so that when expanded due to the heat removed to the tank water while the air was being compressed the injected air would be.very very cold. The heat of compression would then be recovered to expand the air increasing buoyancy and going towards power output. So in actuality, the calculations proved that the system does work because the air is 'refrigerated" and the water is heated, which is inherent in the system when the air is compressed.

Well, I went back to see if there had been any response.

Both the original comment and my follow up comment have been removed.

Someone else asked if it would be possible to build a small desktop model and what would it require.

I left a similar comment suggesting to be sure to COMPRESS and not just PUMP the air for the same reasons. Nobody would expect a heat pump or refrigerator to function if the compressor and expansion valve were removed and replaced with a simple pump.

Compression is necessary to make the heat transfer possible, to simultaneously cool the air and heat the water. As long as that condition existed, a small model should be possible, but most people make the mistake of just using an air pump without any actual compression.

That reply of mine was also removed, but the original question about building a small model remains, with the channel owners response that it would be.very difficult to make a small model.

Well, that, or my responses have not been "approved" for viewing as yet.

YouTube is weird that way in that it will apparently "shadowban" posts that are set to require pre-approval by the channel owner.

[Fool]

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There you go. Any challenge to the operation is not countered, it is removed. Not very open or honest. Ear marks of a scam.

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