The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
matt brown
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by matt brown »

Tom Booth wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:37 am
What "standard" mathematical derivations?

As far as the Carnot efficiency limit equation, it, afaik, is not derived from anything. It's just a supposition that the temperature difference imposes some limit on engine efficiency. As such, it is nothing more than the temperature difference itself written out as a ratio or percentage. It's nothing more or less than the difference between Tc and Th.

As for example: if Th = 400 and Tc = 300 the ∆T is 100 which is 25% of 400.

That's your "derivation" plane and simple.

If that was as far as it went, I'd have no issue

Add 100 joules, you can't do any better than to use the 100 joules. Perfectly logical.

But the Carnot limit has been INTERPRETED to mean: add 100 joules and 75 joules of what you supplied get magically set aside for the "cold reservoir". So just by supplying 100 joules of heat 75% is deducted right off the top for no reason.

You are left with 25% of your original 100 joules and then have to deduct friction, parasitical heat loses through conduction, radiation, vibration etc.

Based on absolutely nothing.

No one has ever observed the supposed 75% "waste heat" traveling magically to the mythical "cold reservoir". If they have, YOU please cite that experiment. Tell me when it was conducted, and by whom.

I'd like to see this "standard derivation"
since dU=dT (aka U is linear T) and Q=W

let x=Q and x=W whereby

400x is the rate of Qin and Wout for an isothermal expansion at 400k
300x is the rate of Qin and Wout for an isothermal expansion at 300k
400x is the rate of Win and Qout for an isothermal compression at 400k
300x is the rate of Win and Qout for an isothermal compression at 300k

For an engine with this 300-400k Stirling cycle, the isothermal expansion process will be 400Qin=400Wout while the isothermal compression process will be 300Win=300Qout.

No consideration for where Q comes from or goes to, nor where W comes from or goes to, nor whether an isothermal process is attainable or not, nor yadda-yadda-yadda...it's that simple !!!

Due note that in this example, x can be 1J, 100J, 1000J or whatever, but the Win of compression (aka backwork) will always be 3/4 Wout of expansion.
Tom Booth
Posts: 4669
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Tom Booth »

matt brown wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:51 pm
Tom Booth wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 10:37 am
What "standard" mathematical derivations?

As far as the Carnot efficiency limit equation, it, afaik, is not derived from anything. It's just a supposition that the temperature difference imposes some limit on engine efficiency. As such, it is nothing more than the temperature difference itself written out as a ratio or percentage. It's nothing more or less than the difference between Tc and Th.

As for example: if Th = 400 and Tc = 300 the ∆T is 100 which is 25% of 400.

That's your "derivation" plane and simple.

If that was as far as it went, I'd have no issue

Add 100 joules, you can't do any better than to use the 100 joules. Perfectly logical.

But the Carnot limit has been INTERPRETED to mean: add 100 joules and 75 joules of what you supplied get magically set aside for the "cold reservoir". So just by supplying 100 joules of heat 75% is deducted right off the top for no reason.

You are left with 25% of your original 100 joules and then have to deduct friction, parasitical heat loses through conduction, radiation, vibration etc.

Based on absolutely nothing.

No one has ever observed the supposed 75% "waste heat" traveling magically to the mythical "cold reservoir". If they have, YOU please cite that experiment. Tell me when it was conducted, and by whom.

I'd like to see this "standard derivation"
since dU=dT (aka U is linear T) and Q=W

let x=Q and x=W whereby

400x is the rate of Qin and Wout for an isothermal expansion at 400k
300x is the rate of Qin and Wout for an isothermal expansion at 300k
400x is the rate of Win and Qout for an isothermal compression at 400k
300x is the rate of Win and Qout for an isothermal compression at 300k

For an engine with this 300-400k Stirling cycle, the isothermal expansion process will be 400Qin=400Wout while the isothermal compression process will be 300Win=300Qout.

No consideration for where Q comes from or goes to, nor where W comes from or goes to, nor whether an isothermal process is attainable or not, nor yadda-yadda-yadda...it's that simple !!!

Due note that in this example, x can be 1J, 100J, 1000J or whatever, but the Win of compression (aka backwork) will always be 3/4 Wout of expansion.
Your,... whatever you want to call this is certainly not empirical evidence. I see no sign or indication of an experiment, and if "standard", you should be able to provide some citation indicating that your,... whatever... is in fact an accepted or "standard" derivation or proof or whatever.

I could argue the specifics of why it's nonsense, whatever you want to call it, but not necessary for the current discussion, which is to locate some historic evidence in the form of an experiment, or failing that, some accepted "standard" derivation.

Neither you nor "fool" are recognized authorities on the subject who have produced the widely accepted "standard" derivation(s) which have only been recently concocted exclusively for this forum afaik.
matt brown
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by matt brown »

matt brown wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:51 pm
since dU=dT (aka U is linear T) and Q=W
This is everywhere online and surely qualifies as empirical.

Given those 2 relationships, allowing x to relate Q and W as a function of T is simple math (not rocket science) and doesn't require any experiment.

If you really want to harp on something, why don't you show us some evidence on how any LTD with whimpy 2-3% volume ratio will ever produce any power...
Jack
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:01 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Jack »

matt brown wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 9:08 pm
Jack wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:55 pm Maybe it's my ignorance, but I fail to see what math proves.
Math is what we use to understand nature. To make it calculable for us. It's not what runs nature. So if our math is off because it's based on a wrong theory, what can we prove with that?
Again, I'm horrible at math, so I might just not get it.
Warfare involves more logistics than combat. Imagine how easy it would be to defeat the Roman army by sheer advantage of our decimal system vs their lacky Roman Numeral system. A classic case where the pen is mightier than the sword...
No clue what you're trying to say here. Care to spell it out for me?
Jack
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:01 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Jack »

Tom Booth wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 8:53 pm
Jack wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:55 pm Maybe it's my ignorance, but I fail to see what math proves.
Math is what we use to understand nature. To make it calculable for us. It's not what runs nature. So if our math is off because it's based on a wrong theory, what can we prove with that?
Again, I'm horrible at math, so I might just not get it.
Well, IMO mathematics can be used to prove, or at least lend some strong evidence to support some ideas or theory.

In this case however, there is no mathematics that supports the Carnot limit theory.

It is purely supposition.

Carnot theorized that if heat (caloric) is a fluid, like water, then it must run downhill from a high to a low temperature.

If true than it can be supposed that the difference in temperature, to one degree or another influences heat engine efficiency. The greater the "height'" the greater the fall in temperature, so the stronger the "flow' of heat.

Not entirely unreasonable IF heat is actually a fluid.

But, as it turns out, heat is NOT a fluid, heat is just a form of energy so the entire theory falls flat and no longer has any sound theoretical basis whatsoever, mathematical or otherwise.

At some point in history though, apparently Kelvin put Carnot's theory about heat running down hill into mathematical form.

Basically, the equation is just the temperature difference, or how far the heat will "fall down" from hot to cold.

Mathematical equations are pretty hard to argue with and most people consider math to be iron clad and set in stone.

Further, the Carnot equation is very easy.

How an engine works is actually quite complicated involving a great deal of precision engineering and practical knowhow, and engine efficiency depends on innumerable factors, some known and well understood and some unknown, but the Carnot formula is very simple so that any nincompoop who knows the formula can consider themselves an authority on engines and an expert engineer even though they might not know a piston from a crankshaft. So the Carnot nonsense is very attractive to wannabe "engineers" and deletant "scientists".
Sure, math has its place and need. But I would like to understand why math would be proof of anything. We usually develop math around something we think is happening. So we can predict and calculate it for future reference. But if our observations are wrong and we develop math around that, the math would be wrong too. Or am I misunderstanding this?
matt brown
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by matt brown »

The Romans used Roman Numerials (X,C,D,M etc) that have very limited math ability, mainly addition and subtraction. However, our current base 10 decimal system is very flexible.

In a war, actual combat is rare, but supplying the troops (and moving them around) requires a nonlinear logistics effort where the logistics per soldier increases with army size. In the past, weather was the major factor limiting field time for any army until armies became so big (think Napoleon) that logistics became the major factor limiting field time and location.
Fool
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:14 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Fool »

Jack wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2024 7:55 pm Maybe it's my ignorance, but I fail to see what math proves.
Math is what we use to understand nature. To make it calculable for us. It's not what runs nature. So if our math is off because it's based on a wrong theory, what can we prove with that?
Again, I'm horrible at math, so I might just not get it.
2+X=4 ?

What does X equal?

You just did algebra in your head. Very smart.

Humans use mathematics to model nature. The mathematics is called science. Nature isn't science. Mathematics is science. When you do pure mathematics, you do pure science. When you do applied science you apply mathematics/science to nature.

Everybody uses mathematics. Anyone working hard enough can learn mathematics. Mathematical knowledge must be built a step at a time, and with practice of those steps.

Tom, Every engine so far to date has had an efficiency lower than the theoretical Carnot maximum, most lower than half that. All your examples included. Most of your examples have an observed/measured efficiency of zero. Very poor results for any glimmer of disproof. Perhaps one day, you will understand why that means Carnot is valid. The ball to show evidence is in your court. So far, nothing from you.

It is not circular reasoning to make the claim, if you break the second law, you also break the first law, or can break it.
Jack
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:01 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Jack »

matt brown wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:06 am The Romans used Roman Numerials (X,C,D,M etc) that have very limited math ability, mainly addition and subtraction. However, our current base 10 decimal system is very flexible.

In a war, actual combat is rare, but supplying the troops (and moving them around) requires a nonlinear logistics effort where the logistics per soldier increases with army size. In the past, weather was the major factor limiting field time for any army until armies became so big (think Napoleon) that logistics became the major factor limiting field time and location.
Well, I got that part. I guess what I was asking is what you were trying to say with that.
matt brown
Posts: 749
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2022 11:25 pm

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by matt brown »

In school, we are taught math as a means of calculating stuff, but we tend to think of this 'calculating' as 2 + x = 4 (Fool's example). However, few relationships between numbers are taught that transcend calculations, like "efficiency" which is probably the most famous 'dimensionless number' (try explaining that concept to a Roman). I've always been good at math and into 'counting' systems, so I approach thermodynamics like cryptography.

Mathematics increases someone's knowledge and communication ability similar conventional multi-lingual skills.
Jack
Posts: 221
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2023 2:01 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Jack »

I get what we use math for and I'm not completely illiterate in it, but I don't see how it proves anything. As we use math to describe reality, reality isn't math. So could it be that our description is off?
Tom Booth
Posts: 4669
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Tom Booth »

Fool wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 12:29 am ...

Tom, Every engine so far to date has had an efficiency lower than the theoretical Carnot maximum, most lower than half that. All your examples included. Most of your examples have an observed/measured efficiency of zero. Very poor results for any glimmer of disproof. Perhaps one day, you will understand why that means Carnot is valid. The ball to show evidence is in your court. So far, nothing from you.

It is not circular reasoning to make the claim, if you break the second law, you also break the first law, or can break it.
Requests #1 and #2 above were quite simple and I think today pretty much universally accepted as basic requirements for anything to be accepted as valid science.

1) experimental evidence
2) mathematical support.

#1 would generally always be considered stronger evidence in support of a theory than #2

The Carnot efficiency limit equation does not have the benefit of either #1 or #2.

As usual, you "Fool" and Matt Brown are both empty handed and can do nothing but make excuses.

Take any other known accepted scientific fact or theory and it can generally be found to be supported by #1 AND #2 above.

Further, experimental profs need to be repeatable, replicable at any time by any qualified researcher. The standards for Scientific acceptance these days is very high.

The Carnot Limit theory would never qualify. Never pass muster. It would never be accepted by modern scientific standards.

In 200 or however many years it's been there is no experimental evidence or mathematical proof at all and the original theoretical basis has fallen apart.

Even Carnot himself abandoned it long before Kelvin and Kelvin admitted it was wrong. Seriously flawed at the very foundation.

What do I need to show evidence of Mr. Fool?

I have nothing to prove.

I simply did a few simple experiments recorded on video.

The experiments are very simple and easily repeatable by anyone.

To me they show quite clearly that the Carnot theory and modern use of the so-called efficiency limit formula are wrong and the efficiency of a Stirling engine is VERY MUCH higher than the supposed "limit" predicted or supposedly imposed by the Carnot formula.

The theory and formula predict MASSIVE amounts of heat being "rejected" at the "sink" or cold side heat exchanger of a Stirling engine.

Not only is the actual amount of heat rejected less than predicted by the formula, often there is no heat at all and sometimes the instrument readings have indicated a slight cooling or refrigerating effect.

These are simple objective observations and unbiased reports.

I would be more than happy to have demonstrated the validity of the Carnot theory experimentally and report on the experimental results confirming the theory.

It's all the same to me.

All I care about is determining how Stirling engines actually work.

You and Matt however are clearly biased and appear to have an agenda to discredit those simple experiments that literally anyone can easily replicate themselves.

You and matt might do well to go over your checklist and see how many of the bullet points apply to your own actions and behavior.

viewtopic.php?p=23185#p23185

This from your post is particularly apropos:
It’s better to admit our ignorance than to believe answers that might be wrong. Pretending to know everything closes the door to finding out what’s really there.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson
I admit my ignorance. I don't fully understand how a Stirling engine works. But I'm doing experiments in my struggle for understanding.

You and Matt claim to be experts in everything, even in areas where you are clearly ignorant, such as HVAC.

You've got it all sewn up. Not a bit of room to doubt your Carnot theory.
Fool
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:14 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Fool »

Tom Booth wrote:The theory and formula predict MASSIVE amounts of heat being "rejected" at the "sink" or cold side heat exchanger of a Stirling engine.
There is nothing in the Carnot Theory about "Mass" or "MASSIVE". There is only Temperature and percentage of work out and Energy in.

Your experiments have neither measured the Energy in nor the Work out. That is insufficient to make any conclusions.

Bring us some pertinent data.

"
Tom Booth wrote:In 200 or however many years it's been there is no experimental evidence or mathematical proof at all and the original theoretical basis has fallen apart.
You keep asking for something that is provided by every measured engine. It has also been provided by many theoretical engine models.

None of them has violated the Carnot law. Do you really want to demand proof beyond proof.

Demanding impossible proof is one of the 5 reasoning errors of science deniers.

https://kenswrong.com/
Tom Booth
Posts: 4669
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Tom Booth »

Fool wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:20 pm
Tom Booth wrote:The theory and formula predict MASSIVE amounts of heat being "rejected" at the "sink" or cold side heat exchanger of a Stirling engine.
There is nothing in the Carnot Theory about "Mass" or "MASSIVE". There is only Temperature and percentage of work out and Energy in.

Your experiments have neither measured the Energy in nor the Work out. That is insufficient to make any conclusions.

Bring us some pertinent data.

"
Tom Booth wrote:In 200 or however many years it's been there is no experimental evidence or mathematical proof at all and the original theoretical basis has fallen apart.
You keep asking for something that is provided by every measured engine. It has also been provided by many theoretical engine models.

None of them has violated the Carnot law. Do you really want to demand proof beyond proof.

Demanding impossible proof is one of the 5 reasoning errors of science deniers.

https://kenswrong.com/
Do you speak English?

I'm asking in all seriousness because you seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

Massive, in this context simply means a large quantity. "Massive amounts of heat "rejected" to the sink."

Dictionary definition:
Something that is massive is very large in size, quantity, or extent.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/di ... mphasis%5D
Fool wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:20 pm ...
There is only Temperature and percentage of work out and Energy in.
There are many many textbook examples that use the Carnot formula to calculate the heat in joules rejected to the sink or "cold reservoir"

Here is one taken at random:

https://www.vedantu.com/question-answer ... 304a8a1c8d
A Carnot heat engine works between 300K and 600K. If it consumes 100J in each cycle, what is the heat rejected in each cycle? What is the work done?
If you know the ∆T and the heat input, using the Carnot equation, you can supposedly calculate the efficiency, maximum work output AND heat "rejected" to the cold reservoir.

In the above example, the heat rejected is 50 joules per cycle.

That is MASSIVE, considering just 100 joules are input each cycle.

If true, such a massive amount (enormous quantity) of heat flowing out from the engine could hardly go unnoticed and undetected throughout hours and hours of continuous operation.

Performing the same calculations on an LTD with a lower ∆T would yield a lower efficiency and an even higher percentage of "rejected" heat.

Weather you agree with these many textbook examples problems and solutions or not is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

This is how the Carnot theory is currently being taught and interpreted and how the expected amount of heat to be rejected is calculated.

In all such example problems the amount of heat that must be "rejected" is directly dependent on the efficiency determined by the Carnot formula:
For the given exercise, the thermal efficiency is 55%. This tells us that for every unit of heat energy put into the Carnot engine, 55% is converted into work, while the remaining 45% is rejected, in this case, into a lake.
https://www.vaia.com/en-us/textbooks/ph ... ycle-and-/

Tell me "fool", are you just playing dumb or do you really not already know the consequences and implications of this Carnot limit that you so ardently support.?

Given any ∆T, the minimum heat to be rejected (according to current textbook examples of applying the Carnot efficiency limit) can be easily calculated.

Of course, any real engine will be less efficient than a Carnot engine, and so will (supposedly) reject MORE, not less heat than what is calculated.

For example:
Example 1

Consider a proposal to build a 500-MW steam power plant operating on a Rankine cycle by a lake. The steam generated by the boiler is at 250°C. The condenser is to be cooled by the lake water at a flow rate of 20 m3/s. As the cooling water will be discharged to the lake,
...
Compress_20240609_052109_9138.jpg
Compress_20240609_052109_9138.jpg (22.52 KiB) Viewed 1703 times
...
The thermal efficiency of an actual cycle is always less than that of the Carnot cycle operating between the same heat source and heat sink
...
The actual cycle will cause a much higher temperature rise in the discharge water than the Carnot cycle due to the existence of the irreversibilities. A large amount of heat rejection to the lake could have a negative impact on the aquatic life and should be monitored closely
https://pressbooks.bccampus.ca/thermo1/ ... ot-cycles/

Wow! So much heat rejected it's a danger to the environment. That sounds like some serious heat rejection going on there!!! And from an "ideal" Carnot engine. A real engine will be even worse!!! (Supposedly).
Fool wrote: Sat Jun 08, 2024 10:20 pm Demanding impossible proof is one of the 5 reasoning errors of science deniers.
I'm not demanding anything.

My experiments are very simple straightforward. Measure the "waste heat" output that according to the Carnot theory, MUST be "rejected" based on the ∆T.

You are the one demanding "impossible proof".

I'm satisfied that the results of my experiments are pretty compelling. As I said, I hardly see ANY heat being rejected regardless of how much heat is applied, or none at all, or even cooling

I'm not demanding anything of anyone. If you don't like my results, do your own experiments if you think it's that important.
Tom Booth
Posts: 4669
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:03 am
Location: Fort Plain New York USA
Contact:

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Tom Booth »

Other than that, I only stated as a matter of historic record that there has never been any experiment testing the validity of the Carnot theory.

Most reputable sources openly confirm this stating that such an experiment would be impossible because it is impossible to build a Carnot engine that could be subject to testing.

After reading that many times in the course of my research over the years, I put a great deal of thought into the problem and conceived of a way.

The Carnot limit DOES make a prediction about REAL engines, as referenced above.

According to the theory, or "LAW" a REAL heat engine will ALWAYS "reject" more heat than a Carnot engine.

The validity of the Carnot formula for a Carnot engine could then be determined by calculating the minimum heat that would be rejected by a Carnot engine for a given ∆T

If we measure the heat rejected by a real engine at the same ∆T, according to the theory, the heat rejected from the REAL engine should be at least equal to or greater than what is calculated for a Carnot engine. That's what all the textbooks claim: No engine can be more efficient than a Carnot engine and so must reject at least as much "waste heat", as a Carnot engine. (Allegedly).

Your claim "fool" that such an approach is invalid seems disingenuous. There are dozens and dozens of textbook examples similar to the above making exactly that kind of determination.

Otherwise the Carnot theory is really unfalsifiable immune from empirical testing, validation or examination, and therefore must be accepted on "faith" or authority. By modern scientific standards then, the theory would be rejected as unscientific. (Popper).

https://youtu.be/-X8Xfl0JdTQ
Fool
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2023 9:14 am

Re: The TRUTH? η = 1 – (Qc / Qh) = 1 – (Tc / Th)

Post by Fool »

Tom Booth wrote:According to the theory, or "LAW" a REAL heat engine will ALWAYS "reject" more heat than a Carnot engine.
That is only true if the amount of heat going into an engine is the same. You haven't measured the heat going into the engine. In fact you haven't even measured the temperature of the hot plate inside the engine, or the cold plate inside the engine. You've used the puniest engine type. It produces zero measured work. It has an efficiency of zero, no work output. Yet you still insists you are the only one that can interpret that lack of evidence as proof that the second law is invalid and all of the universities are conspiring against you, the self proclaimed poor frustrated impatient lad that you are. I'm sorry.

Again if your real engine doesn't absorb as much heat, blown off as mass in an invisible steam leakage, etc... it won't reject much heat, but it will still be more than the Carnot percentage. 75% of one Joule is less than one Joule. I doubt you'd measure any change in temperature using the measurement practices you have been doing for one or two Watts.

One of your experiments did measure temperature rise. The only reason you reported it was because it registered as a drop, because you had the thermal couple in backwards. Denying that temperature rise, as you seem to do, is one of the errors associated with science deniers.
Tom Booth wrote:Other than that, I only stated as a matter of historic record that there has never been any experiment testing the validity of the Carnot theory.
You seem to miss the scientific fact that no engine has ever broken the first law, second law, and the Carnot Theorem, of thermodynamics. Why do you deny that? Everyone else can see it. This, plain and simply, is science denial. Denying an obvious and consistent data set is bad form, and a form of cognitive dissonance.

The Carnot Theorem doesn't require a Carnot engine to falsify it's claim. Any real engine breaking that theorem will do. Falsifiability is not a problem. There are plenty of ways to test that theorem, every engine built does so. All that is needed is one super efficient engine and the ability to reproduce it to render the theorem false, (It would be the proverbial black swan.)

In other words, the Carnot Theorem has falsifiability. It has been tested and challenged by every designer, and every engine. Please come back after easily done measuring of your engine's work output. You may find it doesn't break it either.
Tom Booth wrote:Your claim "fool" that such an approach is invalid seems disingenuous. There are dozens and dozens of textbook examples similar to the above making exactly that kind of determination.
A text book engine rejecting an Ideal 75 Joules of heat, doesn't mean your tiny little LTD machine is absorbing any more than 1 Joule. You must provide easy to measure data to support your absorbed energy, and easily measured work output. Only with those two values can Carnot efficiencies be compared. There is no reason that an engine that is obeying Carnot by rejecting 75% of absorbed heat has to have a temperature rise of the cold plate. It may just be rejecting micro Watts and have zero work output, and very little energy absorbed.

It is not the theory, which you seem to disregard indignantly, that is invalid. It is your lack of measurements that invalidates your test. Please make the measurements. I'm confident that if you do we won't need to have these discussions anymore. You will have answered your mystery question of the temperature anomaly. But maybe not. It's in your ballpark not mine. Go ahead an proceed with conclusions from insufficient data, or choose to retest measuring the recommended extra points. And reevaluate. Your choice. Fool yourself, as we all do, or investigate yourself out of your mistakes. We have, out of helpful kindness, pointed out some necessary improvements.
Tom Booth wrote:Do you speak English?
Yes I do speak and write English, moot point. I'm patiently trying to insert the proper technical terms to very resistant friends. The colloquialism "massive", is nothing more than a sematic game, for large amounts of energy, or significant energy.

The problem is, the efficiency is a ratio of energy in, verses, energy out. You have measured neither for your tiny little LTD engine, so your conclusion of "massive"/lots of energy, is inconclusive and most likely incorrect. My guess, and it is an educated guess, is that the tiny puny little engine can't absorb much more than a few Joules at best, possibly less than one per cycle, 1 or 2 Watts. The rest is just blasted off into the atmosphere as steam. Steam is a massive loss of energy, as it is a flow of hot mass.

There is a difference between good technical terminology and the consequences of using bad misleading or erroneous terms. I'm just striving to improve this website. Please help.
Post Reply