Tesla's Ambient Heat Engine revisted

[Tom Booth]

Well, I'm undecided, personally. Just because something can be faked doesn't necessarily mean that it is in all cases.

As James Randi said, of course, but, the explanation of how to fake it is probably more likely than the explanation that it works by magic.

A simple, small refrigeration/heat pump system is not "magic".

Unless, of course, you don't understand how it works. Then it might seem like it.

[Fool]

Tom, if they were more efficient than a Joule Thompson refrigerator, wouldn't they all use them? Solid state, freon less, noiseless. No they are less efficient.

https://www.rigidhvac.com/blog/compress ... ng-peltier

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

TEC systems have a number of notable disadvantages. Foremost is their limited energy efficiency compared to conventional vapor-compression systems and the constraints on the total heat flux (heat flow) that they are able to generate per unit area

[Fool]

Unless, of course, you don't understand how it works. Then it might seem like it.

Tom, you constantly, change the subject from some scientific point, "no orifice", to an attack on the person, "Pretty obviously he doesn't recognize common refrigeration components, even while watching them being installed."

Why?

If you know so much about me? You don't. Why don't you point out the error in the science. How does a tiny little pump, powered by a tiny little battery, using a tiny amount of butane and air mix, produce a temperature drop of 50 plus degrees, without an orifice, let alone all the other magic that appears in those faked videos. If it were that easy and dramatic an effect, wouldn't all refrigerators and AC units be using that process. Certainly less environmentally hazardous than the current process.

Your liquid "fuel pump" probably will be less effective trying to pump vapour. There isn't enough butane in the system to become liquid by that tiny little pump. What would the pressure drop need to be to effect that much temperature drop? There isn't enough condenser length to remove the heat of compression for that kind of drop.

Yes magic.

[Tom Booth]

Unless, of course, you don't understand how it works. Then it might seem like it.

Tom, you constantly, change the subject from some scientific point, "no orifice", to an attack on the person, "Pretty obviously he doesn't recognize common refrigeration components, even while watching them being installed."

Why?

If you know so much about me? You don't. Why don't you point out the error in the science. How does a tiny little pump, powered by a tiny little battery, using a tiny amount of butane and air mix, produce a temperature drop of 50 plus degrees, without an orifice, ...

It's the "without an orifice" statement that makes it obvious you don't know what your talking about, don't understand refrigeration and apparently don't recognize an "orifice" in a refrigeration system when you see one.

That's not an "attack" it's just a casual observation. You don't know what you're talking about.

Unless like MikeB you didn't even watch the video(s).

[Tom Booth]

...

Unless like MikeB you didn't even watch the video(s).

Sorry, that was VincentG who mentioned he hadn't watched the videos.

[VincentG]

I have since watched the video. Seems plausible. They make no claims for BTU output, just a temperature reduction. There is certainly an orifice.

I guess one would have to recreate the test to verify.

[Fool]

Could you point out a time when the orifice was installed, and a brief description. I certainly could have missed it. However, that is not the only problem. And claiming I don't know, when you can't provide any data is certainly not helping.

I watched several. I saw nothing that was even close to the needed diameter for an orifice that would account for the claimed temperature drop. But it is such an obvious falsehood that I could have missed it by inclusion of the other misdirection pointless video, such as bending of the coils and such. Common magic trick misdirection techniques.

And you still haven't provided any evidence that one was included. Perhaps what you think was an orifice isn't one at all. I can't tell. You insist on ignoring the science, and applying only opinion. Where is the orifice?

[Tom Booth]

Tom, if they were more efficient than a Joule Thompson refrigerator, wouldn't they all use them? Solid state, freon less, noiseless. No they are less efficient.

https://www.rigidhvac.com/blog/compress ... ng-peltier

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_cooling

TEC systems have a number of notable disadvantages. Foremost is their limited energy efficiency compared to conventional vapor-compression systems and the constraints on the total heat flux (heat flow) that they are able to generate per unit area

Oh, well that's good news.

If a 30 watt little peltier helmet cooler for chilling a six pack is less efficient, then a little 30 watt butane vapor compression system like, in one of those videos, should be more efficient.

[Tom Booth]

...But it is such an obvious falsehood that I could have missed it by inclusion of the other misdirection pointless video, such as bending of the coils and such. Common magic trick misdirection techniques.

...

OMG!

The coils are bent, for the same reason the coils are bent in a still. To save space as well as functional reasons the vapor needs to ascend through the coil, or descend.

The more you talk about it the clearer it becomes you have no idea what you're talking about.

Carry on.

[Fool]

No. Those butane quack conglomerations are no where near optimize and so badly designed they don't even work. They have a lower than zero, or negative, efficiency. They burn up energy and produce zero temperature drop.

[Fool]

Where is the orifice?

[Fool]

Here is a real DIY refrigerator. It has an explanation for temperature drop verses orifice. Ten feet of 1 mm tube for a larger pump. Those little butane ones need a much much smaller hole or longer capillary, and even then unlikely to get claimed temperature drop at all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZrHzd3RA8

IMHO that person isn't much better than a hack, but miles better than those butane fakes.

[Tom Booth]

Here is a real DIY refrigerator. It has an explanation for temperature drop verses orifice. Ten feet of 1 mm tube for a larger pump. Those little butane ones need a much much smaller hole or longer capillary, and even then unlikely to get claimed temperature drop at all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZrHzd3RA8

IMHO that person isn't much better than a hack, but miles better than those butane fakes.

Apples to oranges.

That guys using propane. Boiling point -43.6°F

The other guy is using isobutane. Boiling point 10.9°F

Butane is not practical for a household refrigeration system as it would quit working in a cold garage for one thing. Ever try using a cigarette lighter when it's cold?

Lower boiling point, higher pressure

Butane system operates at extremely low pressure, actually at a partial vacuum through 1/2 the system.

The orifice size is determined by the system pressure. A low pressure system does not need as restricting an orifice as a high pressure system. It has less pressure to hold back

Again you have no idea what you're talking about (highlighted above)

Those tiny low pressure butane systems would likely require no more restrictive a metering device than what was provided.

But this is not an HVAC forum, so why don't you go watch a few more videos and stop trying to pass yourself off as an expert who knows more than the guy in the video, who IMO is quite obviously very skilled at building small air conditioning systems. And I'm obviously not referring to your looser fake fake debunking videos, many of whom can't get it to work because they obviously don't know what they are doing.

[Tom Booth]

Another point worth mentioning, a capillary tube type fixed orifice allows the system to equalize when the compressor is off.

Having the system pressure equalized at startup in such a tiny low pressure system means zero high pressure at start up, so a low torque pump/compressor is all that is needed, not your typical high amp high draw at startup fuse blowing compressor.

That "Mr ipoo" has turned refrigeration and air conditioning into an art. When it comes to refrigeration systems he quite obviously knows his stuff IMO.

There are a lot of little technical details that need to be known and adhered to in refrigeration. The size and length of the cap tube, appropriate to the system, is critical. Obviously having the condenser and evaporator coils in the right positions is critical. Did you not ever hear a refrigerator needs to be UPRIGHT?

The gas and fluid needs to circulate in a specific way. Lots of things to f-up if you don't know what you're doing.

So far, all the reasons given by the naysayers for why it couldn't work are quite obviously wrong. Quite obviously THEY (the debunkers) don't know what they are talking about.

[Fool]

Fine. Since you and ipoo know so much more about refrigeration than anyone else go ahead and make one. Let us know how that works out for you.

I just have one more question, how does ipoo get -32 degrees C out of a chemical that boils at 10 degrees F, in a system that is running at atmospheric pressure?

The rest of your last post is so far out of my league I refuse to entertain it. Very entertaining reading though. Thanks.