The Carnot efficiency problem

[Tom Booth]

This guy is a pretty interesting case.

Another backyard inventor.

https://youtu.be/hjLqFSlHWcs

The "technology" of GEET:

https://youtu.be/c7lXCTV9BME

Seems like a pretty normal intelligent guy, probably above average intelligence.


Some accounts of how his life got turned upside down after publicly disclosing his invention, from various not necessarily objective perspectives.

http://www.panacea-bocaf.org/paulpantone.htm

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate ... n-anything

This invention also recycles exhaust and allows the engine to run on virtually any liquid.

It utilized a vacuum to lower the boiling point of the "fuel".

Some report that when running the exhaust is ice cold.

A lot of people, it seems, have built these Geet engines, and it seems Paul Pantone has wisened up after his ordeal and will sue for defamation any party that alleges his technology does not work and will win.

I noticed it's been removed from Wikipedia's "pseudoscience" list page.

Again though, I have no means of untangling these stories, was Paul really "crazy" when they put him away in a psychiatric hospital for the crime of violating the second law of thermodynamics. Did he really get threatening phone calls and death threats etc. etc.

What I haven't seen many of is people who actually built a so-called Geet engines saying that it doesn't work.

Some hint that it works better than what they dare say, hinting that it will actually run on water alone, after getting started on some gasoline fumes.

Doesn't look too difficult as a DIY project. Mostly just a heat exchanger to recycle the exhaust heat. And the vacuum "bubbler". Oh and it seems there is a kind of venturi in the intake to send the "fuel"/air hypersonic during intake.

Apparently it's possible, once it's up and running, to shut off the air supply and recycle all of the exhaust back through the "reactor" in a closed loop.

Maybe it works.

Again, I wouldn't write it off until I actually built and tested it myself, which doesn't seem too difficult.

We can keep trying to squeeze oil out of rock, literally, with cracking, but the oil is, presumably, going to run out eventually.

[Tom Booth]

That was meant to be Fracking not cracking. Sometimes auto-correct can be a real nuisance.

So, what's with the conspiracy theory Matt. Are you an apologist for big brother?

[MikeB]

Apparently it's possible, once it's up and running, to shut off the air supply and recycle all of the exhaust back through the "reactor" in a closed loop.

Nope, nothing fishy about that...

[Tom Booth]

Apparently it's possible, once it's up and running, to shut off the air supply and recycle all of the exhaust back through the "reactor" in a closed loop.

Nope, nothing fishy about that...

IMO it's perfectly feasible, thermodynamically.

Your boiling water in a vacuum sending the water vapor supersonic, probably fracturing at least some of that into hydrogen and oxygen.

Boiling water boils because it is taking in heat and changing phase, so this "water vapor" is superheated. It takes heat to separate hydrogen and oxygen, but water boiling in a vacuum is receiving heat and vapor pressure is very low. Additional heat is supplied in abundance by the intake/exhaust heat exchanger while the intake gas is going supersonic through the hot exhaust, plenty of heat being supplied all the way and finally this hot fractured "water vapor" is compressed to a high compression ratio and ignited.

If even a small amount of hydrogen was seperated, hydrogen burns extremely hot. Probably providing plenty of heat at high pressure to turn the remaining bulk of the remaining water vapor into steam.

What is the expansion ratio for steam? Like expansion of water to stream is 1600 X

A closed system similar to how the rice engine works does not seem out of the question to me.

Thermodynamically there is a lot of ambient heat going into boiling water in the "intake" side in a vacuum and any left over exhaust heat is reclaimed, so much so that some claim ice formation at the exhaust.

Some also say the little bit of gasoline added to the bubbler is just to get things started when the engine is cold, but they avoid claiming the thing will actually run on just water to avoid being harassed by the 2nd Law fanatics

If the process works at all, there is no reason it couldn't work in a closed loop like any other steam engine with a boiler and condenser.

The real source of power in any engine is the heat not the fuel..

Reportedly the oil in these engines can sometimes get milky from the water vapor condensing in the cylinder during expansion/cooling.

But don't use the words "perpetual motion" or "water as fuel" because the Carnot cult will come after you with a vengeance.

"There's no such-a thing as perpetual motion"

https://youtu.be/CJcGqHqs4-Q

[Tom Booth]

It's possible to liberate hydrogen from water vapor with heat. Send the steam through a hot tube and it will come out as HHO if the tube is hot enough.

I imagine this is easier in a vacuum, or takes place at a lower temperature in a vacuum, just like water boils at room temperature in a vacuum. Makes sense to me anyway.

So the water is evaporated quickly in a vacuum, assisted by bubbling the exhaust through it then sent through a hot tube to be compressed resulting in very high temperature (diesel/fire piston adiabatic compression).

Why wouldn't it "explode"?

Well hydrogen "implodes" but releases a tremendous amount of heat.

[Tom Booth]

Anyway, when some guy appears intelligent and sincere and has nothing to gain by lying, and I can see him demonstrate his engine running in some unusual way or on some unusual fuel, I'll certainly be skeptical but I'm not going to pass judgement on him or his demonstration based just on my own extremely limited understanding of the universe, and certainly not on the pronouncements found in a book written in 1820 that the author himself later concluded were fundamentally flawed.

Especially given that I've often found myself in the same or similar position, having done some experiment or other that produced results contrary to someone else's expectations who cannot fathom that they or what they firmly believe to be established fact or settled science could possibly be wrong.

[Tom Booth]

After a bit of reading and research it seems like thermal water splitting can take place to one degree or another at virtually any temperature, just like evaporation. It requires more energy, so it will happen more frequently as the temperature rises.

The temperature requirements for significant amounts of thermal water splitting to occur seems well within the potential temperatures generated in the exhaust of an internal combustion engine and that is not factoring in that this may be taking place in a vacuum with the gas traveling at supersonic speed.

Of course, I'm only theorizing, but why jump to the conclusion that someone I don't even know at all is a crackpot? It seems a lot more fun to me to try and figure out some way he might be telling the truth or might be right.

[MikeB]

Tom,
The simple point is that we all know that you cannot get power out of a machine without putting energy in. We can all discuss perpetual-motion as part of understanding the operation of a "perfect" Stirling engine, ie one with zero friction, but "free energy" is a whole 'nother ball game.

Anyway, did I miss something with this particular engine? If the loop is closed, where does the necessary energy come from? Pulling in energy from the atmosphere is all well and good, if you have a massive heatsink, but I didn't see even a small one.

[Tom Booth]

Tom,
The simple point is that we all know that you cannot get power out of a machine without putting energy in. We can all discuss perpetual-motion as part of understanding the operation of a "perfect" Stirling engine, ie one with zero friction, but "free energy" is a whole 'nother ball game.

Anyway, did I miss something with this particular engine? If the loop is closed, where does the necessary energy come from? Pulling in energy from the atmosphere is all well and good, if you have a massive heatsink, but I didn't see even a small one.

Where is the "massive heat sink" in a heat pump?

In a heat pump you have a "compressor" but since it is a closed cycle the compressor is also a vacuum pump.

When you run an engine in a closed loop you have the same situation. The exhaust side is acting as compressor and the intake side is acting as a vacuum pump.

The vacuum side is low pressure obviously. Low pressure reduces the vapor pressure. Low vapor pressure allows water to boil/evaporate at ambient temperature. Evaporation requires heat intake for the water molecules to reach "escape velocity".

The "bubbler" is not just a bubbler, it is under vacuum and the liquid is undergoing phase change and absorbing heat. The bubbler would likely ice up rapidly if it did not have hot exhaust gases bubbling through it while also having a large surface in direct contact with the surrounding ambient heat.

The bubbler is sucking heat out of both ambient and the exhaust and returning it to the intake.

The intake vapor is carrying this "latent heat of vaporization" (internal energy) into the cylinder where it is compressed.

The "ambient heat" was sneaked into the combustion chamber as latent heat.

Then, I'm supposing, under high pressure there is a diesel fire piston effect. If a vacuum allows boiling and the capture of latent heat of vaporization at room temperature, then the opposite happens at high pressure and there is a release of this latent heat under high pressure, enough perhaps to catapult the water vapor into the gaseous phase or some kind of explosive release of this latent energy.

As I said, similar in principle to the Rice engine or "wet" thermoacoustic engine. Which also has a very modest ∆T.

My whole argument has been, after all, that a "cold reservoir" is not required or anything we should be concerned about

The whole concept of hot and cold "reservoirs" is a fairy tale.

[Fool]

Please build one and sell it to me. Or just let me rent or borrow it.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@alexbeyman ... ngine-scam

[Tom Booth]

Please build one and sell it to me. Or just let me rent or borrow it.

https://steemit.com/steemit/@alexbeyman ... ngine-scam

That article claims:

Pantone claims the instantaneous pressure fluctuations in the exhaust help to create a vacuum that, when combined with the heat, creates micro-magnetic forces, producing a plasma that dissociates the hydrogen from the oxygen in the carburetor

The "source" provided is simply a second hand statement, perhaps, I would guess from the same author as a contributor to the (archived) Wiki article on water fueled cars.

So, IMO, without further corroborating evidence, such as a direct quote from Pantone, I would consider this a misrepresentation.

The "bubbler" IMO serves a purpose similar to, or the same as the throttling valve in any typical vapor/compression system, holding back the pressure on the compression/exhaust side while maintaining a vacuum on the vacuum/intake side of the compressor/engine.

The heat exchanger setup no doubt helps relieve back pressure on the exhaust side.

Mr. Pantone appears to not fully understand how his contraption works, putting forward various debatable theories. Apparently he received the design from his Mrs. Cunningham and doesn't actually know how it works.

I have not consulted with this Mrs. Cunningham, as far as I know, but I'm able to give my own logical assessment, which may or may not agree with Pantone's evaluation.

Also, any alleged "plasma" is on the intake and there is no "carburator". so the author of this article, or his source, apparently has a poor comprehension of the so-called GEET process.

Apparently nobody really knows the exact mechanism of operation, but many, it seems, have put the thing together, with a number of variations, and seem to have convinced themselves and others that it works.

I'd love to build one as a project, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

I'm not claiming that it works, only that I'm able to formulate an idea or theory about how it MIGHT work. based on my own understanding of known principles.

IMO it is just another example of a combined heat engine/heat pump.

The functions of a heat pump and a heat engine are combined in one unit.

[Tom Booth]

Thinking about it, this theory makes me wonder:

An IC engine running on gasoline/alcohol/methanol or whatever, though as far as I've ever heard, has nothing to do with combustion of those various fuels, goes through basically the same process. I mean, as far as I've ever heard, EVAPORATION makes co contribution to the combustion process

Any volatile liquid, like alcohol, however, feels cold on the skin when evaporating because it is absorbing so much of the surrounding ambient heat, and that heat becomes "latent" in the vapor.

The difference between gasoline and water is that gasoline has a much lower boiling point and so evaporates much easier and more rapidly than water.

Gasoline as a liquid does not burn explosively. But after evaporation it is much more volatile and explosive. Could that be because of the additional energy absorbed during evaporation?

How much of the explosive power of gasoline is due to having been evaporated in the carburator and so, having absorbed ambient heat, just prior to compression and ignition in the engine.

I've heard frequently that a lot of the gasoline is exhausted unburned out the tailpipe, which is why it is burned in the catalytic converter to prevent it from poluting the air. If it was completely burned in the engine we wouldn't need catalytic converters. But could the unburned fuel be condensed and sent back through the engine?

Maybe the only real reason gasoline is a.better liquid to evaporate and compress to absorb heat and use in an engine is because it evaporates so much more easily and absorbs more heat of vaporization so much more quickly.

Maybe the GEET system can get away with using mostly water because it has a larger EVAPORATION system more suited to the much higher boiling point of water.

Makes me think again about the rice engine that can run on the evaporation and condensation of water cycle, but works better if a water/alcohol mix, or just alcohol is used, but it is a closed system and virtually all the alcohol re-condenses.

I've often wondered what use it is to compress the fuel air mixture in an engine. It always seemed to me that the work of compressing would cancel out any gain.

Maybe the answer to that is that compression releases the latest heat of vaporization that the fuel is carrying because of its recent evaporation in the carburator.

Now if true, that would be something.

But seems like, to one degree or another it MUST be true.

Gasoline that has evaporated must contain more energy than liquid gasoline since it had to take in heat/energy to evaporate. Compression would raise the boiling point causing condensation but releasing that latent heat. Then the condensed gas gets blown out the tailpipe.

[Tom Booth]

Another contributing factor could theoretically be some form of "cavitation" associated with the so_cslled "fuel rod".

The presence of this "fuel rod" IMO primarily acts like a venturi. Narrowing the intake which accelerates the vapor stream to supersonic speed.

The "fuel rod" is not fuel, it is apparently called that because different types of fuel require different length rods.

Here is a video with some information about cavitation


https://youtu.be/U-uUYCFDTrc


Thee is a difference in that cavitation is most commonly encountered under water. Here however, it would be taking place as a result of water vapor passing through a low pressure zone at high speed as it travels around the "fuel rod'.

Another example of cavitation is the pistol shrimp.

https://youtu.be/1wBYPjkGRdo


And, cavitation apparently, aside from heat near to the temperature of the sun and light also generates plasma.


https://youtu.be/hOdRRjskWcc


This guy talks about magnetic fields which I'm skeptical about, and makes no mention of cavitation but at least gives a fair description of the "fuel rod" and some general principles surrounding it's use.


https://youtu.be/K1mnfp1tDAY


"Cavitation" is probably not a proper term since the pressure drop and phase change is not actually under water. The water vapor however is undergoing conditions known to produce cavitation and plasma even under water, so IMO the conditions in the GEET reactor are actually MORE favorable to plasma formation.

Some Geet engines are equipped with a sight glass in order to view the faint luminous plasma glow surrounding the "fuel rod" which can kind of be seen in some videos, maybe.

https://youtu.be/RTmN5EEcJ5Y

I'm not actually convinced that is not just glare or a reflection. The camera work is horrible. About as bad as mine.

Being skeptical, I think that maybe these engines are actually only running a short while on the gasoline vapors coming from the bubbler.

A mix of 10% gasoline to 80% water in a bubbler does not necessarily mean that any water is actually getting to the engine or being burned, possibly only the gas is evaporating. If that is the case, there are a lot of people deluding themselves, which I won't say is impossible. A lot of people believe in the Carnot limit, for which IMO there is much less evidence.


But it could also be that the gas will evaporate leaving the water, pepsi, ketchup, sugar water, antifreeze or whatever with a higher boiling point behind in the bubbler.

I'm not promoting anything, it just looks to me like there could possibly be something to it and what if it is real but with all the "experts" labeling it a hoax or a scam or just a bunch of crackpots, noting would ever come of it even if there was something to it, which I think would be a shame.

Probably it is all BS. That would be the safe bet

[VincentG]

Tom, I am not a particular fan of Niel DeGrassi Tyson, since he seems very dogmatic to me. But he once said if you keep asking why you either end up a theoretical physicist or insane. I, like you, probably tend toward the latter.

That being said, you might find the Moses effect interesting. Its buried pretty deep on the web but I happened to stumble upon it while researching for my ambient heat engine. Scientists had found that superconductor magnets(orders of magnitude more powerful that neodymium) have the ability to repel water(hense the catchy name) and interact with other non-conductive materials.

There was even a test done where they used heat and a superconductor to create wind in a ceramic tube. Hmm...

[Tom Booth]

Here is an interesting bit.

I found a book online by Paul Pantone called "The book of Geet" which I've just started reading this afternoon.

On page 9 chapter heading "The rod is where it all happens" he wrote:

It may be desirable to put cavitation divots on the rod to enhance the performance, but it is yet to be
done.

As far as I can recall, I have never seen any actual mention of "cavitation" in connection with Geet prior to just now. It seems like confirmation that the "inventor" considered that the GEET process involved cavitation if he thought it might be enhanced.