100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Discussion on Stirling or "hot air" engines (all types)
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,

You say:-
Temperature is not a quantity of heat.

That statement is totally accurate and completely fundamental to defining efficiency. So much so it is worth saying twice!

Temperature is not a quantity of heat.

No "ifs", no "buts", no exceptions, no arguments. Temperature is not a quantity of heat. Three times...... it is that fundamental and vital.


So yes, you are correct on that point!
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,

And you ask:-
You want me to invent an equation that shows how 100% efficiency might be achieved?
You guessed correctly - yes I do.

And here it is:-
That's easy: efficiency = W/Qh
(my emphasis in bold)


So, your equation for efficiency is E=W/Qh

It looks good so far because both the terms W and Qh have the same dimensions and therefore E is dimensionless. Off to a good start for sure!

But first, you need to confirm what you mean by W and what you mean by Qh.

I think you mean that W = Work output.

And I think you mean that Qh = the quantity of heat added absorbed by the hot end (ie not including heat that doesn't make it into the hot end - as you explained early on in the thread.)

But this isn't about what I think...... it is your thread.... so I'll let you confirm those meanings (of W and Qh) or correct me if I've misunderstood.
Last edited by Alphax on Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tom Booth
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Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Tom Booth »

Alphax wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:25 am Tom,

- you are like the proverbial dog with a bone!



This is a line of reasoning that undergrads might enjoy hassling their lecturers with (ask me how I know). It goes like this.......

There are two avenues down which you might achieve 100% efficiency, and none down which you might achieve more than 100% efficiency.
Well that's just your opinion now isn't it.

As. I said, I make no "claims" whatsoever. I'm just doing kitchen table experiments, literally on my kitchen table.

I thought this re-freezing of ice being used to run a Stirling engine, after the ice, by all appearances, had already started melting some 20 minutes prior, rather interesting, so thought I would share it.

Now if I were to speculate, I might say that the engine is busy converting energy into work, and in the process applying that work to effect some kind of refrigeration or heat pump effect.

Sorry if I'm not constrained in my speculations or theorizing by a law or limit I have been unable to locate any supporting evidence or documentation for.

If an engine can convert any heat into work whatsoever, why cannot that work output be directed towards some form of refrigeration?

Would that, in a way be MORE than 100% efficiency?

Well, no heat is getting into the sink, apparently. The same ice is refreezing again and again and again. It kind of looks like the engine might be pulling heat out of the ice.

I'm not making a "claim" that that is what was happening there, but I see no reason to dismiss the evidence of my own eyes, based only on the speculations, or unproven assertions made over a century ago by someone researching steam engines.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

The "dog with a bone" expression means you are tenacious, it is not an insult.

If I may, would you confirm (or correct) my understanding of W and Qh in your equation please. Let us stick to your equation for a few posts and deal with the ice experiment later. Both are interesting, but it is best one at a time and we'll make better progress with the equation.
Tom Booth
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Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Tom Booth »

Alphax wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 5:50 am The "dog with a bone" expression means you are tenacious, it is not an insult.

If I may, would you confirm (or correct) my understanding of W and Qh in your equation please. Let us stick to your equation for a few posts and deal with the ice experiment later. Both are interesting, but it is best one at a time and we'll make better progress with the equation.
Are you kidding me?

It's not "my equation". Do you seriously not recognize E=W/QH ????????

https://youtu.be/O7TSo_up1Dw
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,

you ask:-
Do you seriously not recognize E=W/QH ????????
Yes, of course I do.

Please answer the question - Is my understanding of W and Gh in your equation correct?
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Well, lets proceed on the basis that I have understood your meaning of Qh and W.


The equation you picked, E = W/Qh the classical Black Box for all and any hot air or Stirling engine.

You need absolutely no understanding whatsoever of what is going on inside the Black Box, all that is known is that when a quantity of heat (Qh) is put in at one end, a quantity of work (W) is produced at the other.

And that is it - no further equations necessary, no Thermodynamics, no Carnot (or anyone else).






Now.... the question is.... in all the 206 years since the Stirling Engine was invented, has anyone ever measured values of Qh and W for any engine, anywhere, at any time such that W/Qh => 1.0? (i.e. such that E in the equation you picked = 1.0 or exceeds 1.0)?


The answer is....... well, what do you think, Tom........?


Supplementary question..... is it possible (essentially the title of this thread)........what do you think, Tom?
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Tom Booth
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Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Tom Booth »

Please answer the question - Is my understanding of W and Gh in your equation correct?
Sorry but no, your repeated insistence in my explicitly reiterating the obvious is vaguely annoying and a waste of time.

What differs, if anything, about my hypothetical "reality" is not the conventional meaning of the standard symbols used in the equation but the assumptions and philosophic underpinnings.

For example, the video posted begins with the assertion:
Now heat naturally flows from a high temperature to a cold temperature and as it flows down some of that energy can be used to perform work.
Your little "black box" drawing is a portrayal of the same old Caloric, flow through assumption.

That is nothing more or less than a reiteration of the old Caloric theory. Carnot's fluid flow from high level "reservoir" of fluid to a low level "reservoir".

We would make more progress if we stop and examine the validity of these assumptions.

Heat is not a fluid flowing "down", through or across, like water flowing "down" a mountainside.. Heat is the transfer of energy (vibration/collision) between unit particles. There is nothing compelling heat to "flow" in any particular direction.

Given two volumes of unequal temperature, there is a statistical tendency for the transfer of energy to progress from the volume of greater energy towards or into the volume with less energy,, but this is not being instigated by any outside force in the same way that water is compelled to flow down due to the force of gravity.

The entire conceptual framework for interpreting and evaluating this circumstance, (volume of energy1 || machine || volume 2) , is a fallacy.

We have simply a thermo-mechanical device situated between two volumes or spacial areas, each brimming over with randomly dispersed molecular kinetic energy, onej ust slightly moreso than the other.

Given this situation, interpreted not from Carnot's old Caloric standpoint, where heat is supposedly compelled to flow "downhill" from hot to cold but instead from the standpoint of the more modern kinetic theory, I don't know of any particular reason why kinetic energy cannot be extracted from two different volumes or sources of energy simultaneously.

If I have two potential sources of energy, why should it not be possible to couple them together in such a way that they amplify each other?

Set up an intermediate space, an "engine" which does nothing but manage energy interactions such that both volumes can be utilized, possibly by setting up an ossillation between the two volumes.

In the world of kinetic energy, something of this sort does not seem entirely outside the realm of possibility, it is only in Carnot's water works, as handed down, that some such scenario has been deemed "impossible".

I think it is about time we clean out the remaining cobwebs of this old Caloric - heat as a fluid flowing down mythos that clouds our thinking in relation to how heat engines may, or may not operate.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Hint...... provided you stay away from engines smaller than about 1mm and are happy to ignore nano and quantum phenomena, there are no reported examples of any real (not theoretical) hot air or Stirling cycle engine where E = 1.0 or E>1.0.


So, on the basis of 206 years of practical work on real engines, so far the answer to the thread appears to be "no". So far.


Which begs the question.... is it possible (to reach 100% efficiency, or E =1).

The answer is NOT 'no'. The true answer is this - it is unlikely. Which is another way of saying it cannot be ruled out.


This is where armchair thermodynamicists become a little concerned, of course, and tend to want to cite the Second Law of Thermodynamics. However, the Second Law isn't strictly speaking interpretable as a "Law" - it offers a statistical limit, but falls short of denying 100% efficiency. Having said that, the statistical probability that human hands could make a Stirling engine even come anywhere close to 100% efficiency (E=1) is so vanishingly small that it is to all intents and purposes zero.

Which is why, if you can make one we'll all be mightily impressed! And there would be no end of folk queuing at your door to find out just how you did it!!
Last edited by Alphax on Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,

You say:-
Your little "black box" drawing is a portrayal of the same old Caloric, flow through assumption.

No. That is wrong. The Black Box has one input and one output and assumes nothing about either. Or what does or doesn't go on inside.
Last edited by Alphax on Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,

You say:-
If I have two potential sources of energy, why should it not be possible to couple them together in such a way that they amplify each other?

No one is stopping you. Go ahead and give it a try.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Sorry, Tom, our posts must have crossed at the same time! Slightly out of sequence, therefore, but I don't think that matters.
Tom Booth
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Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Tom Booth »

Alphax wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:03 am Tom,

You say:-
If I have two potential sources of energy, why should it not be possible to couple them together in such a way that they amplify each other?

No one is stopping you. Go ahead and give it a try.
You misunderstand.

That is not a proposal. It's a speculative hypothesis, intended to explain observations of how it appears Stirling engines actually operate .

People always seem to think I'm trying to invent something. I'm basically just trying to understand what is actually going on.

A Stirling engine re-freezing the ice it's running on doesn't harmonize with established theory.

It may be easy for others to ignore this apparent phenomenon, but it is not so easy for me to ignore when I had to keep forcibly prying my engine loose from the ice after I saw for myself it had already started melting.

I don't need to "go and give it a try".

What would be helpful and make for some progress would be if someone else would give it a try and see if they can get their engine to freeze itself to some partly melted ice, simply by providing it with some load. Some work output to divert heat/energy to instead of the ice.

How would you explain it?
Tom Booth
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Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Tom Booth »

Alphax wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:01 am Tom,

You say:-
Your little "black box" drawing is a portrayal of the same old Caloric, flow through assumption.

No. That is wrong. The Black Box has one input and one output and assumes nothing about either. Or what does or doesn't go on inside.
You forgot about Q cold

That is usually assumed to be an output, but my observations suggest it may actually be an additional input

And I'm not talking about some proposal for any new invention.
Alphax

Re: 100% efficiency (+) it it possible?

Post by Alphax »

Tom,
People always seem to think I'm trying to invent something. I'm basically just trying to understand what is actually going on.

A Stirling engine re-freezing the ice it's running on doesn't harmonize with established theory.

It may be easy for others to ignore this apparent phenomenon, but it is not so easy for me to ignore when I had to keep forcibly prying my engine loose from the ice after I saw for myself it had already started melting.
Thats OK.

A Stirling Engine that refreezes the ice it is sitting on is an extremely improbable event. That is why - when we discussed it earlier - I was surprised and guessed that the opposite effect (that the ice under the LTD engine would melt sooner). I was genuinely surprised at what you found, and rather impressed at the elegant simplicity of your experiment.

And... as you rightly say, it needs to be explained!


Also.... I do agree with you that it needs others to repeat your experiment to see if they get the same result that you did. It is actually important to get other people to do the repeat because it is only when several people working independently have confirmed the same (repeat) result that we can be sure that you have got a real effect.

I will share with you what I have found so far with my repeats of experiments.
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